Difference between revisions 10641913 and 11452887 on enwiki

For an October 2004 deletion debate over this page see [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of songs whose title does not appear in the lyrics]]
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== Translations ==
Translations? If a song (Like Nick Cave's "Time Jesum...") mentions its title in a different language, does that count in or out? I'm not sure. [[User:Tolo|Tolo]] 17:02, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

:Is the whole song in another language or just the line with the title in it?  If it's just the line with the title, I think it should be included with the explanation that the title is in a different language (and that language should be specified).

:[[User:Acegikmo1|Acegikmo1]] 19:40, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)


== Foreign language titles ==
What about songs that are entirely in English but have a title that is part of the lyrics translated into another language? -- [[User:SS|SS]] 21:03, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
*This is the same as the above comment, I think. --[[User:Goosegoosegoose|Thomas]] 15:56, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Instrumentals ==
Dare one mention instrumentals?

hmmm good point, but usally i dont consider them songs as songs conatin words. -fonzy

Technically you can have a song without words. In fact they are quite common in classical music. But in a practical sense, you are right - I was just nit-picking because I'm too tired to make any useful contributions. I think for the sake of this entry we can define "song" as "song with lyrics". :) I tried to think of a couple to add just now, but my brain is fried after a very long day at the office. [[User:Tannin|Tannin]] (I'm sure I had a spare brain cell here somewhere. Must have left it in my other pants. No doubt it'll turn up in the morning.)

:-) Technically that be [[List of songs where the title does not appear in the lyrics because the song doesn't have any in the first place.]]

Does Cages' 4.33 count as a 'song'??[[User:Quercusrobur|quercus robur]] 17:13 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

:If you can sing it, it's a song, if not... [[User:Derek Ross|Derek Ross]]

::Well, you can sing 4'33" just as easily as you can play it on an instrument... -- [[User:Wapcaplet|Wapcaplet]] 23:30 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

== Thank you ==
All my life, I felt so, you know, bad. Didn't know what was wrong with me. Life felt pointless. Until today. You know enlightenment when it happens to you! When I stumbled over [[List of songs where the title does not appear in the lyrics]], my life was changed. Thank you, Wikipedia. Thank you.

:Amen

== Credit  ==
Consensus needed - do we want to credit the songwriter, or the best known performer?  Should we go change all "The Beatles" songs to "Lennon/McCartney"?

:I only take issue with cases where the impression is created that a song was written by an artist who, in fact, merely popularized it. That would be disinformative and thus contrary to the purpose of an encyclopedia. [[User:Mkweise|Mkweise]] 20:54 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

== Lumberjack Song ==
#"Lumberjack Song?"  The one that starts, "I'm a '''''Lumberjack''''' and I'm okay?"  That song that doesn't have the title in its lyrics?
#*Sorry wasn;t really thinking when i aded taht one. -fonzy(half asleep)
#"Fanfare for the Common Man" is a ripoff of a title by Aaron Copland, which is an instrumental.  Maybe we could refernce that somehow? -- [[User:Zoe|Zoe]]


:I would think something like the Lumberjack Song would not qualify because u shouldnt expect "song" to be included within the lyrics and it does say lumberjack. If you allow lumberjack song then I could write my ''FU BALLAD'' and then shout "FU FU FU FU FU FU" to heavy drumbeats and technically it would qualify. [[User:Susan Mason|Susan Mason]]

::I agree.  I'm going to remove any listing with "song" or "ballad", etc.  -- [[User:Goatasaur|Goatasaur]]

== Don't get it ==

I don't get this list but it's cool I guess... [[User:Susan Mason|Susan Mason]]
:Yeah, I'll be adding more as I can think of them. -- [[User:Goatasaur|Goatasaur]]

== theme (from Flood) ==

"theme (From Flood) = no" : Why on earth not?
:A song with a title that explains what it is shouldn't be on this list.  Words like "ballad", "song", "theme", and others I haven't thought of, are indicators.  If a song has a title like "Song for Jerry", you don't expect the band to say the title in the song. -- [[User:Goatasaur|Goatasaur]]
::A good point, but is there consensus on this?  If so, should be mentioned somewhere.
:::There isnt consensus much of anywhere since there isnt a voting method. [[User:Susan Mason|Susan Mason]]

"Consensus" doesn't necessarily imply a vote. [[User:Bagpuss|Bagpuss]]

::::There's not much of a consensus since this is a new article. Some guidelines for submitting are mentioned at the bottom of the page, though. Should it go in a more conspicuous location? -- [[User:Goatasaur|Goatasaur]]
:::::The 'theme/song/ballad' guideline ''wasn't'' there when this all started.
  "Lumberjack Song" was.  Doesn't matter much either way.

::::::(or however many) That obviously needs to be a guideline. -- [[User:Goatasaur|Goatasaur]]

What about things like "Song for Whoever", where the word "whoever" doesn't appear in the lyrics either?  Plus how obscure can they be?  Personally I've only been listing singles.  [[User:Bagpuss|Bagpuss]] 17:59 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)

:IMO, e.g. "Alabama Song" (aka "Whiskey Bar") qualifies, because you would expect Alabama to be mentioned in the lyrics, but it isn't. Similarly, "New Speedway Boogie" does not use the words "new speedway" (the song is about the events at the Altamont Speedway concert, which by many accounts marked the end of the "summer of love".) 
:By contrast, it is hardly remarkable that songs with titles like "Eulogy" or "Finale" don't include those words in their lyrics. [[User:Mkweise|Mkweise]] 18:58 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
::I feel the same way about "Bohemian Rhapsody". -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]

::::Alabama is prominently mentioned in the lyrics of "Alabama Song":
:::::O moon of Alabama, we now must say good bye
:::::We've lost our good old mamma, and must have whisky oh you know why

[[User:Ortolan88|Ortolan88]]

:::"Ballad of a Thin Man" (Dylan) is another that should really stay on the list (IMO), because 'Thin Man' aptly describes the personality of the character in the song, and consequently it would be reasonable to expect the song to contain the phrase somewhere. I mean, you wouldn't get rid of "Subterranean Homesick Blues" just because it contains the word "blues," would you? --[[user:Rlowry|Rlowry]]

::::I think we can call that a consensus. [[User:Mkweise|Mkweise]] 20:22 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)

::::No.  The subjects in the titles of ballads are rarely named in the lyrics.  If a song is titled "Ballad of X", it is given that the song is about X, making it pointless to point this out in lyric.  The word "ballad" should still be taboo on this list. -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]

:::I also think songs with "blues" in the title should be taken off for the same reason.  Show me a comprehensive list of songs with "ballad" or "blues" that actually *do* say the title of the song in the lyrics and I would be open to change.  If you've got a style of music in the title of the song it is almost NEVER repeated as a lyric.  -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]

:: I agree with that as a general principle, but there needs to be some way of taking exceptions into account otherwise the whole list becomes a bit pointless IMO. "Ballad of a Thin Man" is a little different from the usual, because it is not intuitively obvious that it is about a 'Thin Man' in the same way that, for example, "The Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd" is obviously about Pretty Boy Floyd. The title of the song actually adds something to the listener's understanding of it, by encapsulating the songwriter's attitude towards the person he is describing. Similar points would apply to "Subterranean Homesick Blues." It's a completely different sort of song title to, say, "Walking Blues" or whatever. It just happens that it has the word "blues" in there somewhere. [[user:Rlowry|Rlowry]]

:::That makes sense, but it might set a bad precedent.  What if Joe User comes upon this list and says "Hmm, they have 'Ballad of a Thin Man', but not 'The Ballad of John and Yoko', I think I'll add it!"? -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]


::I see your point. One solution would be to add a rider to the blurb at the bottom of the page, stating that "Ballad / Blues / Song / etc" are excluded unless their useage is non-obvious - ie, unless useage is poetic rather than straightforwardly descriptive - examples being "Ballad of a Thin Man"; "Alabama Song"; "Bohemian Rhapsody"; etc. 
::Maybe moving the exclusions to the top of the page might minimise the risk further still. -- [[user:Rlowry|Rlowry]]

== Twelve Days of Christmas ==

*thinking* should i put "Twelve Days of Christmas" count?  it half appears, only '''of christmas'' appears -fonzy

:I'd say no, since the lyrics do deliver the listing of 12 days which the title leads you to expect. There are many songs after that fashion, e.g. "The Four Horsemen". [[User:Mkweise|Mkweise]]

:I'd say yes, since the title doesn't by itself describe a song.  OTOH, if the title were "Song about the Twelve Days of Christmas", then it would constitute a title descriptive of the song and therefore be excluded. -- [[User:Smjg|Smjg]] 12:28, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)


== Organization ==
There Appears to be two different notations being used here, one alphabetized by performer, one by title.  Shouldn't we all agree on one format?

:yes - please fix it.

:I think we should agree on a format, and post it at the bottom of the page along with the song restrictions.  I kind of like the Songs listed underneath the artists, but that isn't consistent with the other Lyrics trivia pages.  Any ideas? [[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]

::This list is quite a bit bigger than the other lyrics trivia lists... I like the sorting by artist. -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]

:: The idea was to sort all of the entries by artist but, since there are many with only one song accredited, it seemed simpler just to organise those by titles under a collective heading. Maybe they should all be listed under artist headings, for consistency. I don't mind doing it if there's a consensus. [[user:Rlowry|Rlowry]]


== Why ==

Der... uh? Why? Why? Why? Please someone give me a rational reason why a half-dozen people have expended so much energy creating this page? My mind is about to snap, here. What value does it add to this encyclopedia? Can't we work on things like [[mutual fund]] and [[stegosaurus]] instead? Please? Please?!?? [[User:Graft|Graft]]

:Why don't u go work on them? We are busy with this. [[User:Susan Mason|Susan Mason]]

:Graft, with all due respect, just because you aren't willing to embrace the challenge that this article represents doesn't mean that other wikipedians aren't up to the task.

::I may or may not be "up to the task", but I want to know: what's the bloody point? Who gives a flying leap? How is this going to be useful, either to someone reading the wikipedia, or for someone writing articles, other than for "Oh" value? Do you ever anticipate a scenario in which someone will need to make use of the information contained herein? What is this scenario? If you have no answer to this, why are you writing this article? [[User:Graft|Graft]]

:::Graft, you're being really obnoxious here. Who are you to tell us what the point of the wiki movement is? Why don't you go look up stegosaurus yourself and stop bothering us. [[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]

:::With all due respect, this article will be useful to any reader who wants to know what songs do not contain their titles in their lyrics.  That is no different then [[List of Mexicans]] being useful to any user who wants to know if there are any famous Mexicans.  Also, the "half-dozen" people you mentioned above are actually twenty-eight distinct users who have participated in producing this article to this point. -anon

:::::This article would be more useful if it included the first line or most recognizable line of the songs.  E.g. "The world is a vampire" for "Bullet with Butterfly Wings".  -- [[User:SS|SS]] 23:50, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

After seeing this article, I switched my PHD thesis from a study of the implications of Progoiso's Theorem within a multi-vectored system, to a study of why some musicians use song titles in which they never state the title within the song. I find this article invaluable in doing my research. [[User:Susan Mason|Susan Mason]]

== Organization (again) ==

Does anyone want to take the big list of crap from the bottom of the page and headerise it like the rest of the list?  I'd do it but I'm getting ready to leave. We might as well give a big header to every artist and song, if groups like Dinosaur Jr. and Mary J. Blige get their own. -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]

:I'd rather see us do the opposite.  That is, take the band headers out and simply make it an alphabetical list of songs.  That is in keeping with this being a '''List of songs''' and not a '''List of artists'''.

::I agree. That's the way we had it originally, until someone partially reorganized it while I was asleep. [[User:Mkweise|Mkweise]]

::It would still be a list of songs...  the list would just be ''sorted'' by artist... it makes browsing the page much easier. -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]


::I'm voting for the list of artists, with their song contributions below.  The list would be much harder to read in one condensed list.  The problem is that (as  we proved to [[User:Graft|Graft]] in an earlier discussion) we are all the writers of this article, and I wouldn't want to step on anyone's toes in the process of standardizing this list.  I really would like it if everyone contributed to this discussion so we can see what people would really want.  --[[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]

:: I vote for sorting by artists too. Much easier to browse, and it looks more organised. [[user:Rlowry|Rlowry]]

::I've specified the format clearly on the main page now, and migrated all artists with at least two songs to the artist header format.  Hopefully this will get future users to follow the artist header format in the future. --[[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]

Sorting by song title is pointless, as nobody needs to search through the list to see if a particular song has that title within the lyrics, on the other hand, sorting by artists is somewhat more informative. [[User:Susan Mason|Susan Mason]]

How does sorting by artist do any good when a song is performed by more than one artist? -- [[User:Zoe|Zoe]]

: That is a good point, Zoe. However, I think it should be broken up in ''some'' way, as I find very long unbroken lists aesthetically displeasing. The list could be divided up into 27 alphabetical categories (A - Z and "other"). Or, recognising that only the lyrics are being considered here, we could order it according to the name of the person who wrote the lyrics. (That might be difficult to do, though, as lyricists are usually much less well-known than performers...) -- [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 02:16 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)

List it under both artists. [[User:Susan Mason|Susan Mason]]

: Hmm... That would lead to unnecessary redundancy, I think. If it ''has'' to be sorted by artist, I would suggest putting under the ''original'' one. -- [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 02:16 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)


:: Let's take a real world example and consider what to do with it.  The song "Land of 1000 Dances" does not contain the title in the final version of the lyrics, and is therefore suitable for our list.  It was written by ''Chris Kenner'', and he was the first to record it.  Kenner's recording didn't chart.  Then Fats Domino recorded it, and again it didn't chart.  Then, Kenner's original version saw some radio play and charted at #77.  The song was then recorded by Cannibal and the Headhunters, who charted it at #30.  The song was then recorded by Wilson Pickett, who took it to #1 on the charts.  It was Wilson Pickett's best selling song ever.  The song was later recorded by several other artists, none of whom took it very high on the charts.

:: So, with all that said, who should this list credit with the song?  Chris Kenner wrote it, but the list isn't crediting songwriters.  Chris Kenner was the first to record it, but his version wasn't very notable.  Since only Wilson Pickett had notable success with it, I'm comfortable calling it "his" song for the purposes of this list, and that's where I'm going to put it.

:::By that logic, should we also credit Vanessa Mae for Paganini's music? --[[User:Lament|Lament]]

::::I don't think we can come up with a single rule that covers all cases.  We *could* decide to always credit the composer, but that is going to be unsatisfactory for most pop music.

:::::In the case of "Land of 1000 Dances," and others with problems like that, I'd say list it under the more popular performer with a credit (in parentheses) to the original ''performer''.  Not to poo on songwriters or anything, but most people browsing the list will look for the popular performer of the song.  As long as "props" are given to the original it shouldn't be a problem.  Maybe put a thing at the top near the rules stating it.  It would be cool if all music trivia lists followed this format. -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]

== Iffy songs ==
I'm starting a discussion on which songs are iffy in our list- it's long enough that we can be more stringent with the qualifications, please respond to each dispute with your opinions:
* Beatles - "She Said, She Said" -- I think that the fact that they say "She Said" once, is fine, because the lyrics are all there.  -- [[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]
** I agree.  It should go. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]]
* Bloodhound Gang - "Fire, Water, Burn" -- I know that the guy says Fire and Burn in the song.  I'm not sure about Water, but is it important that the lyrics be consecutive? -- [[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]
** He never says ''water''.  I think this one should stay. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]]
* Leonard Cohen - "Story of Issac" -- Is this really different from "Anna's Song"? -- [[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]
** I agree.  It should go. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]]
* I'm not really sure how "Bohemian Rhapsody" has managed to get past the 'song / ballad / theme / others' restriction. If we're being logically consistent then shouldn't we get rid of that too? --[[user:Rlowry|Rlowry]]
**I agree.  It should go. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]]
** Bohemian Rhapsody was the first song on this list... it just struck me as amusing that it doesn't qualify now. 
* What about "∞"?  It kind of goes without saying that symbols won't be in lyrics. -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]
** I agree.  It should go.
*** Nonsense. The symbol is mathematical shorthand for "infinity", and that word does not appear in the lyrics. Adding it back. [[User:Mkweise|Mkweise]] 19:54 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

* "She Said She Said"... the song has the words "she said", just not twice in a row.  Keep it?
: And... in "Fire Water Burn" he does say those three words in a row, at the end of consecutive lines on the same verse:
::"The roof is on fire/We don't need no water/Let the motherfucker burn/"
:That's all I can think of. -- [[User:Goatasaur|ヤギ ]]
:::Oh, yeah... except in the chorus.  It's always in the last place you look.  OK, then I think that one should go too. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]]

* "Love Fool" By the Cardigans should probably be taken off too- "Love Me, Love Me, Fool Me, Fool Me."  --[[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]

* "White Rabbit" by Jefferson Airplane - Both 'White' and 'Rabbit' appear in the song, just not consecutively.  What exactly is our policy on this sort of thing?   --[[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]


* Ok... if "Bohemian Rhapsody" is the most famous song-whose-title-does-not-appear-in-the-lyrics, "Unchained Melody" is quite possibly the second. I hate to be iconoclastic for the sake of it, but... "melody"... it *has* to go, right? --[[user:Rlowry|Rlowry]]
:Removed it --[[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]]

* Removed "Ode to Billy Joe" and "Opus 17" as per qualifications. [[User:Rlowry|R Lowry]]

* Depending on the version, A Perfect Circle's "Judith" has a "Why, Judith, why?" in the lyrics. It's possible that it's in the background of the regular album version as well, though I don't have the album on hand at the moment to check. [[User:Kyouketsusha|Kyouketsusha]]

:"Judith" does not contain the word Judith in the lyrics anywhere (on the album).  I've been to quite a few A Perfect Circle shows (on both their tours) and have never heard "Why, Judith, why?"? so I think it should be allowed to stay.  [[User:MrHate|MrHate]] 23:10, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
** Listen to the remix by Lohner and Eustis - I think it's called also the "Renholder Mix." At about 2:56 into it we can hear "(Now, Judith, why?) Still you pray, never stray" (I got that a bit wrong -- but it's still there.) If it's just this remix, we should probably make a note of it anyway. [[User:Kyouketsusha|Kyouketsusha]]

== ''Author'' vs. ''Artist'' ==

What's the deal with "[[Author]] or [[Artist]]" at the top of the page?  I'm not complaining about it, but why was it changed from just "[[Artist]]"? -- [[User:Goatasaur|Ô¿Ô]]

I think it just said [[Author]] before, and none of us noticed. Whoever changed it probably didn't want to get rid of 'author' just in case it was there for a reason. I've removed it now...  --[[user:Rlowry|Rlowry]]

:Oh yeah, it did say "Author".  Okay, I can see why that was changed now. -- [[User:Goatasaur|Ô¿Ô]]

== "Clocks" by Coldplay ==

"Clocks" is mentioned once by coldplay, the line says: "...the closing walls and ticking clocks..." [[User:Heidi S|Heidi S]] 13:04 May 3, 2003 (UTC)

== Descriptive Titles ==
Wow. Seems to me an task totally irreconcilable with NPOV to not include songs whose title is "descriptive of the song." Why Tori Amos' "Doughnut Song" but not Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody"? Why Rodney Carrington's "Second Letter to my Penis" but not They Might Be Giants' "Theme From Flood"? Practically all song titles are likely to be in some way descriptive of the song. Titles are "meta" data, if you will. But to be honest, I don't care that much since this article does not seem very useful to me... Cheers :-) -- [[User:Wapcaplet|Wapcaplet]] 23:29 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
*I understand that Blink 182's "Anthem" and "Anthem Part Two", as well as Manowar's "March For Revenge (By The Soldiers Of Death)" are not to be included in this list, since they are titles descriptive of the song. Ain't they? I'm not sure with "Second Letter to my Penis", since I don't know the song. I letter means 'piece of text' and refers to the piece of text shown in the lyrics, then...--[[User:Erri4a|Erri4a]] 01:27, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== Tori Amos's songs combined with another artist's? ==
It looks like Tori Amos' list got combined with another artist's -- I admit I haven't kept up with her work, but I don't recognize many of the song titles and the list is weirdly scrambled, alphabetically. Someone who's a bigger fan may want to double-check it. -- [[User:Scarequotes|Scarequotes]] 20:40, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

* I looked the ones I didn't know up, and they're all her songs. The ones I didn't recognize (For Mark, Me and You, The Pool and Til the Chicken) are either b-sides from singles, soundtrack cuts where the soundtrack wasn't released, or improv. In any case, I think that "For Mark" is descriptive of the song itself and should probably be removed. "Me and You" is potentially iffy as all those words appear in the song, just not together (as in the "Cloud On My Tongue" example in the intro). Her full lyric listing (as far as I can see) is [http://www.hereinmyhead.com/collect/lyrics.html here]. [[User:Kyouketsusha|Kyouketsusha]]

== Iffy songs (again) ==
Ah, thank you Random page, for having brought me here. Heh. Hmmm, Deftones' "Change (In the House of Flies)" is on there... are we making parentheticals necessary? The word "change" appears prominently... -- [[User:Jakenelson|Jake]] 08:29, 2003 Sep 20 (UTC)

I think the current Simon and Garfunkel entry provides a nice summary of many of the issues discussed here:

*"El Condor Pasa" (If I Could) (alternate title is in the lyrics) 
*"Punky's Dilemma" 
*"The Boxer" (lyrics say "...in the clearing stands a boxer...") 
*"For Emily, Whenever I May Find Her" 
*"Canticle" 
*"A Simple Desultory Philippic" (Or How I Was Robert McNamara'd Into Submission) (alternative title is only partially in the lyrics) 
*"A Poem On The Underground Wall" 
*"Kathy's Song"

I would suggest:

* Leaving "El Condor Pasa" in, because many titles have parenthetical portions that are intended to make it easier for listeners to find out what they're listening to, even though the actual title is purposely chosen by the artist to express something not explicitly stated in the lyrics.

* Removing "The Boxer", because the technicality of a simple difference in article detracts from the greater purpose of mapping titles intriguingly different from their lyrics.

* Leaving "A Simple Desultory Phillipic", because one significant word ("McNamara") in a long title full of significant words doesn't seem to detract from its "intriguingly different" factor, not to mention its inclusion in the parenthetical part.

* Removing "Kathy's Song", because Kathy is mentioned in the song, and it's therefore very descriptive (as opposed to "Annie's Song" (John Denver), where Annie is never mentioned, and may still be rejected for its descriptive nature).

Comments? -- [[User:Jeffq|Jeffq]] 14 Mar 2004 23:12 GMT

I put "Kathy's Song" back in before reading this, but I'm not sure it does not belong here: I seems that the song is ''about'' Kathy, but it may be a song written ''for'' Kathy about someone else. The title adds to the song. I've always liked this song because I don't know who this Kathy is. I like it because Kathy is not named in the song. I don't think the title is redundant at all, but if someone disagrees, not being an expert, I will retract. [[User:Eje211|Eje211]] 19:51, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

==Explanation for my last edit.==
We don't need to tell people what the wiki mark up looks like b/c anyone who edits this page can see perfectly well what the wiki mark up is and if they make a mistake then someone will eventually fix it. Also we're supposed to [[Wikipedia:Avoid self-references|avoid self-reference]]. [[User:Saulisagenius|Saul Taylor]] 10:18, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)


== Iffy songs (yet again) ==
Very quickly looked through - REM's Sidewinder Sleeps Tonight includes the line 'the sidewinder sleeps, sleeps, sleeps in a coil'. So I wouldn't include it on the list. [[User:Average Earthman|Average Earthman]] 10:30, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

:I put it on the list but wasn't quite sure whether it matched the criteria, so it can be removed. Some other questions: Does "The Riddle" (Nik Kershaw) count or is it just a descriptive title? Besides, I know some songs that are completely in Japanese but have English titles. Should I put those on the list? -- JanZ

:: I thought it actually did include its title at the end of a subsequent verse, but on a quick look at some lyrics sites, it appears that it doesn't.  Moreover, it's "Tonite" not "Tonight" ... but I've noticed that it's been put in correctly.  And by the way, "Songs in foreign languages, with English titles" are among the specific exclusions of the list. -- [[User:Smjg|Smjg]] 11:01, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

== Wonderful list ==
What a wonderful list!  Wikipedia's list articles I find are some of the most useful articles, and information, on the internet.  That being said, is there a list of the Beatles songs anywhere on here?  Also a lot of the Beatle's songs have no entries also. --[[User:ShaunMacPherson|ShaunMacPherson]] 12:13, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

== Acronyms ==
How about song names that are acronyms from lyrics. Like Blur's M.O.R. ("Go middle of the road"). I think they should go.

:Agreed.  I removed the song from the list.

:[[User:Acegikmo1|Acegikmo1]] 04:05, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

== ''Ecnegludni Fles Sseldnim'' ==
I debated the inclusion of MSI's "Ecnegludni Fles Sseldnim" (from "Tight"), because it's the "secret" song on the album (the track starts out just as track #3, "Mindless Self Indulgence" on the album, an answering machine message in which, basically, a guy can't remember the name of the band. However, after the message, is approximately three minutes of silence, followed by a secret song. Since "Ecnegludni Fles Sseldnim" are not actual words, I'm not sure if this should be included -- please remove it if it shouldn't. [[User:DX|DX]] 16:27, May 22, 2004 (UTC)


== Absurd ==
I think this is one of the most absurd lists we have...we have to go through contortions just to trim down the list (e.g., excluding names like "Bohemian Rhapsody"), it's still absurdly long (and no doubt it's missing many unheard-of songs), and seems to serve no purpose other than be a really long list. Would anybody even want to look this up in an encyclopedia if they could? --[[User:Furrykef|Furrykef]] 05:35, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:I like the list. I've wanted a definitive list of songs like this (and songs that refer to other bands, and songs that refer to other songs) for years. If you want to talk about lists that are overlong and serve no purpose at all, I'd look at the lists of songs whose titles include personal names or place names. I could add about 200 to each of those if I cared enough. [[User:Andrewlevine|Andrewlevine]] 08:08, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

== Song order ==
What order should songs be listed in under each division?  I just put the songs I added in track order by album and albums in order of release, since I didn't see a pattern... -- [[User:SS|SS]] 23:50, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
*I tend to put them in alphabetical order when I add them in, but organizing them by album sounds like a good idea. Maybe list songs alphabetically by album, then albums by release date? [[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]] 06:05, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

== Descriptive titles (again) ==
Regarding David Bowie's "Space Oddity:" I think it counts as a song where the title describes the song (it's all about a space oddity) and thus shouldn't count (similar to Bohemian Rhapsody). --anon

:I disagree, I think that the title doesn't describe the song, but rather what the song is about (as you pointed out parenthetically).  I think the difference is important.  The Beatles' "A Day in the Life" certainly describes what it is about, but also appears in the list.  And unless the title is clearly about the song (rather than the subject of the lyrics) I think it should be in the list.  Part of the reason for this is that in many cases I think it is arguable if the title describes the subject of the song or doesn't.  -- [[User:SS|SS]] 21:03, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

== Ava Adore ==

Should the song 'Ava Adore' be included in this list? It does say "you're the one that I adore" but it doesn't say 'ava'... [[User:The MoUsY spell-checker|KC the MoUsY spell-checker]] 10:14, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:Depends. What does "Ava" mean? Is it the name of the woman he's addressing in the song? --[[User:LuciferBlack|LuciferBlack]] 16:49, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
::Most likely, since the other meanings of 'ava' are either the name of a place or a plant (according to dictionary.com) [[User:The MoUsY spell-checker|KC the MoUsY spell-checker]] 08:55, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:::I'd say leave the song out of this list. The guy is just professing his love for his beau. Isn't puppy-lurve cute? --[[User:LuciferBlack|LuciferBlack]] 21:12, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)
::::Maybe this view on "Ava" might help:
::::''Audio Vanguard Association - The band called themselves this for a secret show at the Double Door, in Chicago, on June 23, 1997. This concert was one of the very first after the start of the Adore recording sessions. It is likely that the band chose this name because the first letter of each word spells out "Ava", which of course relates to Adore's first single, "Ava Adore".''
::::http://www.spfc.org/band/faq.html?faq_id=90 [[User:Ziggyziggyziggy|ziggy]] 02:51, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Subtitles ==

There's a number of songs here where the main title of the song doesn't appear, but a subtitle does (e.g. ''Good Riddance (Time Of Your Life)''). This raises two quandaries;

1 - is the presence of a subtitle enough to disqualify the whole song? (Personally I suspect so; these sorts of songs seem to have a thread of the main title implying the mood of the song, with the subtitle constituting actual lyrics...); and<br>2 - where does this leave Radiohead's ''(Nice Dream)''? [[User:Kinitawowi|Kinitawowi]] 14:46, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

== Subterranian Homesick Blues ==

An anonymous user asked why I removed "Subterranian Homesick Blues". I answered on [[User talk:Quadell#List of songs whose title does not appear in the lyrics|my talk page]]. [[User:Quadell|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &ndash; [[User:Quadell|'''Q'''uadell]] <sup>([[User_talk:Quadell|talk]]) ([[User:Quadell/Request for assistance|help]])</sup>[[<nowiki></nowiki>]] 23:15, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

== Paninaro '95 ==

I don't think "Paninaro '95" by the Pet Shop Boys belongs on this list. The word "Paninaro" appears several times in the lyrics, and I believe "'95" is just to indicate that this song is a new version, released in 1995. [[User:Ziggyziggyziggy|ziggy]] 16:58, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Kyuss ==

I'm sure some of the Kyuss entires are instrumentals. 50 Million Year Trip for example? I don't have the CDs at home to check though.--[[User:Goosegoosegoose|Thomas]] 16:09, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Do these really belong? ==

'''Black Box - Ride on Time'''.  The lyrics do sound like "ride on time" to me, even if only by sounding like "right on time" with an American or similar accent.  So really, the title is a pun on the real words/meaning.  (Another example of this kind of pun is Larry Norman's "The Sun Began to Rain".)  So I guess this is a borderline case.  Incidentally, lyrics sites variously give "right on time" or "ride on time" as the words.

'''Blink 182 - Anthem''' and '''Anthem Part Two'''.  These look like descriptive titles to me.  And does '''David Bowie - Eight Line Poem''' fit in this boat as well?  (I'm not familiar with any of these three pieces, in case you're wondering.)

-- [[User:Smjg|Smjg]] 12:28, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:I figure that ''anthem'' and ''poem'' are describing the lyrics. I think we should give an example of titles containing these words in ''Titles that are descriptive of the song''.--[[User:Erri4a|Erri4a]] 13:19, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
::Anthem and poem are definitely descriptions. Take 'em out. I'm familiar with Anthem part 2, and that's definitely a description. [[User:Premeditated Chaos|[[User:Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF00FF>P</font>]][[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF33FF>M</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF66FF>C</font>]]]] 00:32, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

----

This is really a very silly page.  And amazingly long considering its utter irrelevance. [[User:Palefire|Palefire]] 00:04, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
*So go edit something else, and leave us musical loonies to our eccentricities. =) [[User:Premeditated Chaos|[[User:Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF00FF>P</font>]][[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF33FF>M</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF66FF>C</font>]]]] 00:32, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

== A few more I'm not sure where/if to add ==

[[B*Witched]] - "In Fields Where We Lay" (last track on Awake and Breathe album).  Nearest in the lyrics is "In the fields where once we did lay", which is somewhat different in meaning so I'm not sure if it counts as "only a few parts of speech away from the title".
:I think it shouldn't be included. [[User:Grue|Grue]] 13:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
::I agree. [[User:Kyouketsusha|Kyouketsusha]]

"[[Little Drummer Boy]]".  Obviously this would qualify for the list, but considering that there's no obvious sign of a commercially recorded version by the authors (or anyone associated with them), under whom should it be listed?
-- [[User:Smjg|Smjg]] 22:57, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:And there are probably a number of folk songs to qualify there, perhaps before the alphabetical list of authors there should be a section for folk/various artists songs. [[User:Grue|Grue]] 13:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
::Or possibly file them all under 'T' for 'Traditional. Failing that, I'm sure a number of people have recorded it, so find a famous one and file under that, stating also that it's been recorded many times by various artists. [[User:Kyouketsusha|Kyouketsusha]]

I believe that "John Smith" by [[Graham Kendrick]] is a candidate.  Can someone confirm?  The only lyrics I can seem to find online are incomplete. -- [[User:Smjg|Smjg]] 10:47, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

== Bias ==

Just out of curiousity, is the bias towards alternative artists an artifact of the editors or an artifact of the sort of bands that title their songs this way? [[User:Dcoetzee|Deco]] 07:44, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
: What do you mean by "alternative"? I think we have quite a variety of music types, myself. [[User:Kyouketsusha|Kyouketsusha]]
: I think pop songs rarely have obscure song titles for the same reason that albums are named after the biggest hit from that album: it makes the song easier to remember once you heard it. BTW, I've got a great list idea, [[List of albums whose title is not also a title of one of the songs from that album]]. The name needs some work to make it shorter, though. [[User:Grue|Grue]] 07:55, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
:: As far as I can think, naming an album after one of its tracks is neither the exception nor the rule.  It's just one of many ways in which albums are named, some of which are variations of this theme.  And so such a list would get endless.  And even when they are named after a track, there's no rule about which one - sometimes it's one of the singles released either before or after the album, and sometimes it isn't.  (Personally, I think they should choose one that isn't going to be a single - that way people won't confuse the single with the album.) -- [[User:Smjg|Smjg]] 10:32, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== Band vanity ==
I noticed there are extensive lists of songs from some unknown to me bands who don't even have their own article. I suggest delete them and add a guideline so that these won't be added again (unless someone writes an article about them). [[User:Grue|Grue]] 09:39, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

: I disagree.  If the band really exists (or existed), and has some degree of fame in some part of the world (as opposed to some random amateur band that isn't well known anywhere, that the contributor maybe happens to be a member of (or friend/relative thereof)), then waiting until the band has its own article in Wikipedia just seems pointless.
: In the meantime, if we get rid of them then someone will independently add them again.  Moreover, who is going to keep track of the band's list of songs for this list, ready for when the band eventually gets an article?  We might as well have them right here, right now. -- [[User:Smjg|Smjg]] 16:52, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:: There are some actual bands that don't have a Wikipedia article yet. It doesn't mean they're not famous, it just means no one has written about them yet. I say leave the songs unless its an obvious vanity. (For example, someone who's written a vanity article on their band and is trying to add them here as well, but how common will that be anyway?) [[User:Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF00FF>P</font>]][[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF33FF>M</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Premeditated Chaos|<font color=#FF66FF>C</font>]] 00:44, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)