Difference between revisions 1345640 and 1345650 on enwiki

'''We Didn't Start the Fire''' is a [[song]] by [[Billy Joel]] that lists major events in his lifetime, from 1949 to 1989.

==Lyrics==


''([[1949]])''<br>
[[Harry Truman]], [[Doris Day]], [[People's Republic of China|Red China]], [[Johnnie Ray]]<br/>
''[[South Pacific]]'', [[Walter Winchell]], [[Joe DiMaggio]]

''([[1950]])''<br>
[[Joe McCarthy]], [[Richard Nixon]], [[Studebaker]], [[television]]<br/>
[[North Korea]], [[South Korea]], [[Marilyn Monroe]]

''([[1951]])''<br>
[[Ethel and Julius Rosenberg|Rosenbergs]], [[H-Bomb]], [[Sugar Ray Robinson|Sugar Ray]], [[Panmunjon]]<br/>
[[Marlon Brando|Brando]], ''[[The King and I]]'', and ''[[The Catcher in the Rye]]''

''([[1952]])''<br>
[[Dwight D. Eisenhower|Eisenhower]], [[vaccine]], [[Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom|England's got a new queen]]<br/>
[[Rocky Marciano|Marciano]], [[Liberace]], [[George Santayana|Santayana]] goodbye

We didn't start the fire<br/>
It was always burning<br/>
Since the world's been turning<br/>
We didn't start the fire<br/>
No we didn't light it<br/>
But we tried to fight it

''([[1953]])''<br>
[[Joseph Stalin]], [[Malenkov]], [[Gamal Abdel Nasser|Nasser]] and [[Sergei Prokofiev|Prokofiev]]<br/>
[[Rockefeller]], [[Roy Campanella|Campanella]], [[Communist bloc]]

''([[1954]])''<br>
[[Roy Cohn]], [[Juan Perón]], [[Arturo Toscanini|Toscanini]], [[dacron]]<br/>
[[Battle of Dien Bien Phu|Dien Bien Phu falls]], ''[[Rock Around the Clock]]''

''([[1955]])''<br>
[[Albert Einstein|Einstein]], [[James Dean]], [[Brooklyn Dodgers|Brooklyn's got a winning team]]<br/>
[[Davy Crockett]], ''[[Peter Pan]]'', [[Elvis Presley]], [[Disneyland]]

''([[1956]])''<br>
[[Brigitte Bardot|Bardot]], [[Budapest]], [[Alabama]], [[Nikita Khrushchev|Khrushchev]]<br/>
[[Grace Kelly|Princess Grace]], ''[[Peyton Place]]'', [[Suez Crisis|trouble in the Suez]]

We didn't start the fire<br/>
It was always burning<br/>
Since the world's been turning<br/>
We didn't start the fire<br/>
No we didn't light it<br/>
But we tried to fight it

''([[1957]])''<br>
[[Little Rock Crisis|Little Rock]], [[Boris Pasternak|Pasternak]], [[Mickey Mantle]], [[Jack Kerouac|Kerouac]]<br/>
[[Sputnik program|Sputnik]], [[Zhou Enlai|Chou En-lai]], ''[[The Bridge on the River Kwai|Bridge on the River Kwai]]''

''([[1958]])''<br>
[[Lebanon]], [[Charles de Gaulle]], [[Los Angeles Dodgers|California baseball]]<br/>
[[Charles Starkweather|Starkweather homicide]], [[thalidomide|children of thalidomide]]

''([[1959]])''<br>
[[Buddy Holly]], ''[[Ben-Hur]]'', [[Mercury program|space monkey]], [[Mafia]]<br/>
[[hula hoops]], [[Fidel Castro|Castro]], [[Edsel|Edsel is a no go]]

''([[1960]])''<br>
[[Lockheed U-2|U-2]], [[Syngman Rhee]], [[payola]] and [[John F. Kennedy|Kennedy]]<br/>
[[Chubby Checker]], ''[[Psycho]]'', [[Belgian Congo|Belgians in the Congo]]

We didn't start the fire<br/>
It was always burning<br/>
Since the world's been turning<br/>
We didn't start the fire<br/>
No we didn't light it<br/>
But we tried to fight it

''([[1961]])''<br>
[[Ernest Hemingway|Hemingway]], [[Adolf Eichmann|Eichmann]], ''[[Stranger in a Strange Land]]''<br/>
[[Bob Dylan|Dylan]], [[Berlin Wall|Berlin]], [[Bay of Pigs Invasion]]

''([[1962]])''<br>
''[[Lawrence of Arabia]]'', [[The Beatles|British Beatlemania]]<br/>
[[University of Mississippi|Ole Miss]], [[John Glenn]], [[Sonny Liston|Liston]] beats [[Floyd Patterson|Patterson]]

''([[1963]])''<br>
[[Pope Paul VI|Pope Paul]], [[Malcolm X]], [[Profumo Affair|British politician sex]]<br/>
[[John F. Kennedy assassination|JFK blown away]], what else do I have to say?

We didn't start the fire<br/>
It was always burning<br/>
Since the world's been turning<br/>
We didn't start the fire<br/>
No we didn't light it<br/>
But we tried to fight it

''([[1964]]-[[1989]])''<br>
[[Birth control]], [[Ho Chi Minh]], [[U.S. presidential election, 1968|Richard Nixon back again]]<br/>
[[Apollo 11|Moonshot]], [[Woodstock]], [[Watergate]], [[punk rock]]<br/>
[[Menachem Begin|Begin]], [[Ronald Reagan|Reagan]], [[Palestine]], [[aircraft hijacking|terror on the airline]]<br/>
[[Ruhollah Khomeini|Ayatollahs in Iran]], [[Democratic Republic of Afghanistan|Russians in Afghanistan]]

''[[Wheel of Fortune]]'', [[Sally Ride]], [[heavy metal music|heavy metal]], [[suicide]]<br/>
[[Foreign debts]], [[Vietnam veteran|homeless vets]], [[AIDS]], [[crack]], [[Bernhard Goetz|Bernie Goetz]]<br/>
[[Syringe|Hypodermics on the shore]], [[Tiananmen Square protests of 1989|China's under martial law]]<br/>
[[Rock and Roll|Rock and Roller]], [[Cola Wars]], I can't take it anymore

We didn't start the fire<br/>
It was always burning<br/>
Since the world's been turning<br/>
We didn't start the fire<br/>
No we didn't light it<br/>
But we tried to fight it

We didn't start the fire<br/>
But when we are gone<br/>
Will it still burn on, and on, and on, and on...Ok, sorry Sjorford, I don't mean to be rude or something but you mix up the metropolitan areas population for Brussels, Nicosia, Luxembourg etc with the population of those cities...moreover the statement that all capitals of the EU except for Valetta have the largest population is FALSE, since Brussels is only the 5th largest Belgian municipality and Nicosia (Lefkosia) is not the biggest city in Cyprus either. Again, this list clearly deals with cities/towns/municipalities and NOT with metropolitan areas/conurbations etc. It is based on official date from all 25 census agencies all over Europe. As I wrote earlier, I would encourage you to complete a list of metropolitan areas ( though there is no concensus in the E.U. on the definition of a metropolitan area ) but I'd ask you to refrain from correcting this list except for the CORRECT INFORMATION from the statistical agencies on the population of a city/census estimates and orth./gramm. mistakes.
[[User:VicFromTheBlock|VicFromTheBlock]]

No, sorry Brussels is out of this list, this is not a list of metropolitan area but rather a list of cities/towns/municipalities. There is a clear distrinction between these 3 and a metropolital areas. If you wish to create a list of metropolitan areas, I encourage you to do so but please don't mix it up with this list.
[[User:VicFromTheBlock|VicFromTheBlock]]

:I know what you mean, but if you ask any Belgian "what is the largest city in Belgium?" they will say "Brussels". It's worth mentioning the fact that the municipality is quite small, but the larger population of Brussels should definitely be in the list. I don't dispute that the data is "official", but, just as there is no Europe-wide definition of a metropolis, there is actually no Europe-wide definition of a city either. Some cities are drawn quite tightly around their traditional area, others spread out to take in many commuter towns. They're just local government areas, after all. In the case of some larger cities like Brussels, they 

:This isn't a unique occurrence - the figure in the list of 7m+ for London is actually [[Greater London]]. The [[City of London]] has a population of only about 2,000, and there was in fact no overall London government for a good chunk of the last 20 years (apologies if you're British and already know all this :) But London is clearly "the biggest city in Europe", by any reasonable definition of those words, so the larger figure - the more '''''representative''''' figure - goes in. There shouldn't be too many extreme cases like these, and perhaps they should all be mentioned as footnotes. But to exclude Brussels because of a quirk of local government is just not right. -- [[User:Sjorford|sjorford]] 09:31, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I do agree with you on London, the situation is confusing given the fact that there is a different usage for the City of London, (pop. 7,807) however within the Greater London area ( Inner/Outer London for British census purposes) only two places have a status of a city per se  the City of London ( The Square Mile ) and the City of Westminster. Places like Croydon or Kensington and Chelsea have only a status of a borough ( and not of a city/municipality/town )therefore would not be eligible to be on that list, that is what pushed me to include the whole city of London on the list as was the fact that the Greater London has a mayor. At this point, I am not sure whether we should live London the way it is or rather include boroughs. I guess I need some more feedback on that.

When it comes to Brussels, it's far less complicated. Brussels is a municipality that is part of [[Région de Bruxelles-Capitale]], one of I think 18 different municipalities. Each of them has a clearly defined status as a city. Brussels is actually a part of conurbation since other cities in the Bruxelles-Capitale have a similar population to Brussels like Uccle, Schaerbeek, Ixelles or Anderlecht. Of course, when it comes to prestige or importance Brussels would certainly deserve the place on the list but it's only a list based on the population
[[User:VicFromTheBlock|VicFromTheBlock]]
Btw, the only reliable website except for the statistical agencies is http://www.citypopulation.de/ yet even though it's good it still contains some errors.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone could enlighten me about the city of L'Hospitalet de Llobregat or L'Hospitalet? What is the official name of the city.
[[User:VicFromTheBlock|VicFromTheBlock]]

==UK figures, mid-2003==
Latest figures for [http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=8559&More=Y England and Wales], [http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/statistics/library/poptest/03mid-year-estimates/03mid-year-estimates-tables.html Scotland] and [http://www.nisra.gov.uk/statistics/financeandpersonnel/DMB/datavault.html Northern Ireland]:
{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" style="text-align: center;"
!City!!2001 Pop!!Rk!!2003 Pop!!Rk!!Diff!!%!!Rk!!Notes
|-
|[[London]]||7,172,091||1||7,387,900||1||215,809||3%||-||
|-
|[[Birmingham]]||970,892||15||992,100||15||21,208||2%||-||
|-
|[[Leeds]]||443,247||57||715,200||26||271,953||61%||+31||massive rise?
|-
|[[Glasgow]]||629,501||30||577,090||37||-52,411||-8%||-7||
|-
|[[Sheffield]]||439,866||58||512,500||46||72,634||17%||+12||
|-
|[[Bradford]]||293,717||94||477,800||54||184,083||63%||+40||massive rise?
|-
|[[Edinburgh]]||430,082||59||448,370||58||18,288||4%||+1||
|-
|[[Liverpool]]||469,017||52||441,800||60||-27,217||-6%||-8||
|-
|[[Manchester]]||394,269||64||432,500||61||38,231||10%||+3||
|-
|[[Bristol]]||420,556||61||391,500||65||-29,056||-7%||-4||
|-
|[[Cardiff]]||292,150||96||315,100||85||22,950||8%||+11||
|-
|[[Coventry]]||303,475||91||305,000||92||1,525||1%||-1||
|-
|[[Leicester]]||330,574||80||283,900||96||-46,674||-14%||-16||
|-
|[[Sunderland ]]||||||283,100||97||||||||new entry
|-
|[[Nottingham]] ||||||273,900||99||||||||new entry
|-
|[[Belfast]]||277,391||99||271,596||||-5,795||-2%||||dropped out
|-
|[[Newcastle upon Tyne]] ||||||266,600||||||||||outside list
|-
|[[Brighton and Hove]] ||||||251,500||||||||||outside list
|-
|[[Kingston upon Hull]]||301,416||92||247,900||||-53,516||-18%||||dropped out
|}

I haven't put them straight into the article as there seem to be some huge differences - the figures for Bradford and Leeds particularly are '''''60% higher''''' than what's in the article. Is there some other standard definition of their city boundaries, or has http://www.citypopulation.de/ just drawn up their own? (The [[metropolitan borough]]s for these two do cover quite large rural areas, which are included in the official figures.) -- [[User:Sjorford|sjorford]] 13:29, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:The reason for the discrepancy is because the figures provided by www.citypopulation.de are only for the urbanized part inside the city. This is a rather phony concept... But anyway, what we are concerned with here is city population, be it urban, rurban, or rural. The list is about population inside the city administrative boundaries. So I am replacing the figures for the English cities by the 2003 estimates from UK statistics. [[User:Hardouin|Hardouin]] 16:53, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

== French cities ==

VicFromTheBlock is obviously not a well informed person. The 2004 estimates that I gave for French cities are official and provided by Insee ([http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/docs_ffc/IP1001.pdf]). So before reverting and accusing people, double-check the facts first, you will avoid appearing rash and ignorant. [[User:Hardouin|Hardouin]] 16:30, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Hardouin, please don't power trip. The fact that I corrected your list means simply that the information that you have provided is in fact untrue and deals with metropolitan areas, it has nothing to do with you personally. It has more to do with the fact that you are in fact unable to understand certain concepts. If you continue to vandalize this page, I will ask admin to have it protected. I also want to say that I do not vandalize your "western european metropolital areas" pages that in my opinion are incomplete, misleading and leave a lot to be desired. You must understand that the french concepts are not universal throughout the European Union and that this list deals exclusively with cities or towns and not metropolital areas, thank you for understanding. [[User:VicFromTheBlock|VicFromTheBlock]] 8:27,PM 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:Threats I see... VicFromTheBlock, threats only reveal inner insecurity and lack of self-confidence. Plus, correcting "your list" (as you call it), is not the same thing as vandalizing it. But then, like older people used to say, "If you want to kill your dog, accuse it of rabies".
:As for "my list" as you call it (as if Wikipedia articles were the private property of someone!), well if you disagree with some aspects of [[Largest urban areas of the European Union]], you should express your concerns in the discussion page there.
:Finally, there are no such things as "French concepts". There are definitions that are used by governments, geographers, or statisticians across Europe, or even the world for that matter, but more on this below.
:No more threats and accusations please. Only reasonable discussions between adult people, and striving to achieve a consensus. Thank you. [[User:Hardouin|Hardouin]] 15:56, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

==Cities vs. metropolitan/intercommunal entities==
The problem with the list in this article is that it sorely lacks a definition of what is exactly a city/town as an administrative unit. Therefore, the article is basically comparing apples and pears. Let me precise this: at first glance it may seem easy to say what is a city/town, and what is not, but actually, if you look at things in detail, the situation is extremely blurry. In many countries, there is no such thing as a clean-cut city/town that we can easily differentiate from other administrative units. A few examples: starting with English speaking countries first, in the UK and Ireland there are no administrative units that are called "city" or "town". In the UK there exist cities and towns, but they are not recognized as administrative units. "City" is a honorific title that is dearly sought in the UK, and granted by the queen, but it is not an administrative unit. For instance, [[Truro]] (19,000 inhabitants) is the capital city of [[Cornwall]], and was granted city status by Queen Victoria in 1877. However, the city of Truro is not an administrative unit. Truro is located inside the district of [[Carrick]] (88,911 inhabitants), which is the lowest level of administrative division (Carrick is divided into wards, which are electoral units only). So here we have a city that is not an administrative unit.
<br>
<br>
Another example: [[Guildford]] is a town (failed to obtain city status in 2000) which is the [[county town]] of [[Surrey]]. The town of Guildford (66,000 inhabitants) has its own mayor, elected every year. However, the town of Guilford is not an administrative unit, but it is part of the [[Guildford (borough)|borough of Guildford]] (128,944 inhabitants), which is much larger than the town of Guilford, and include other towns such as Ash for instance. The borough of Guildford is headed by a "Chief Executive", which is clearly distinct from the "mayor of Guildford". Again, the borough of Guildford is divided into wards that are only electoral units. There is not even a "Guildford ward", because the town of Guildford is the reunion of several wards of the borough of Guildford. So again we have another very blurry situation, where a town/city does not really correspond to any administrative unit.
<br>
<br>
Other examples across Europe: in Portugal there are no "cities" (cidade) either. The lowest level of administrative unit is the parish (''freguesia''). Above the parish is the "council" (''concelho''). Councils are quite similar to rural [[Districts of England|districts]] in England, or [[civil township]]s in the US. However, a few councils are very urban and more akin to what we think of as a "city". Above councils are districts (''distritos''), which are quite similar to English or US counties. Now, the figure given in the list for the city of Lisbon is in fact the council of Lisbon (564,657 inhabitants). The council of Lisbon has no mayor, but it has a president. Below the council of Lisbon are parishes with each their president of parish assembly. Above the council of Lisbon is the district of Lisbon (2,135,992 inhabitants), with a civil governor at its head. Does the city of Lisbon correspond to the council of Lisbon? or does it correspond to the district of Lisbon? Again a very blurry situation.
<br>
<br>
In Poland, there are [[powiat]]s, which are like English districts or US townships. In very urban areas, some powiats were made municipal powiats, and the figures in the list for Polish cities refer to municipal powiats. However, in the case of Warsaw, the municipal powiat of Warsaw is headed by a president (not a mayor), and below it are several independent municipalities with each their own mayor. So here we come to an important point, we need to distinguish between a "city" properly speaking, and a metropolitan/intercommunal entity. The municipal powiat of Warsaw is clearly a metropolitan/intercommunal entity, made up of independent municipalities with each their mayor. Nonetheless, it was included in the list. On the other hand, the [[Brussels Capital Region]], which is also a metropolitan/intercommunal entity with a minister-president at its head, and several independent municipalities below, with each their mayor, was not included in the list. So why was the municipal powiat of Warsaw (494 km&sup2;) deemed to be a city and included in the list, when the Brussels Capital Region (161 km&sup2;) was not? Here there is a total lack of coherence.
<br>
<br>
Another metropolitan/intercommunal entity is Greater London. Greater London is not a city properly speaking (despite it being headed by a so-called "mayor"), but it is a metropolitan/intercommunal entity called [[Greater London Authority]] (1,580 km&sup2;). The word "mayor" in itself means nothing. There are entities that are clearly cities but which do not have a mayor (such as Paris until 1975), and there are entities which have a so-called "mayor" but which are not cities properly speaking (such as Greater London or the municipality of [[Chongqing]] in China). Greater London is made up of independent municipalities, called boroughs, in exactly the same way as the Brussels Capital Region and the municipal powiat of Warsaw, and the London boroughs have mayors, and sometimes even city status (e.g. the Right Worshipful Lord '''Mayor''' of the '''City''' of Westminster). London boroughs even freely twin with other cities of Europe or the world, such as the [[London Borough of Croydon|borough of Croydon]] which is twinned with the city of [[Arnhem]], Netherlands. Greater London, on the other hand, never twins with other cities, as it is not a city itself.
<br>
<br>
So here is the point: we have to decide whether or not we include metropolitan/intercommunal entities in the list. If we do not include them, then we ought to delete Greater London and Warsaw from our list. If we include them, then we must not only include Greater London and Warsaw, but we must also include Brussels Capital Region, [[Urban Community of Lyon]], [[Urban Community of Lille Métropole]], and so on.
<br>
<br>
Now please express your opinion on this, but without threats or personal attacks. Thank you. [[User:Hardouin|Hardouin]] 15:56, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

== Cities vs. metropolitan areas ==

Hardouin claims to have a great deal of knlowledge of demography yet fails to distinguish some major differences bewteen cities/towns and metropolitan areas. Hardouin doesn't realize that sometimes 
"less is more". I guess that's the way people in France work. In fact, the French concepts Hardouin uses are in no way, applied by a large majority of the World's statistical agencies.

NOW with regards to the list and Harouin's observations.

a:) the link provided by Hardouin from Insee is incomplete because it gives only partial information about the French cities as of 2003. It is BY NO MEANS a CENSUS ESTIMATE. As Hardouin might have realized it is based on a survey based on a really small percentage of the population ( 8 % ) and in itself claims to be inaccurate by at least 500 people. Also it gives imprecise information with regards to the total population of the city. That Insee survey is there to show the population city tends and not a census estimate. I believe it's not too hard to distinguish between a Census Estimate and a temporary, imprecise data with regards to the population of the cities. Hardouin, understand that this page deals with precise CENSUS ESTIMATES as such, not just showing the city trends with regards to its population as this INSEE publication does. If you could find a precise statistics from Insee I would be more than welcome to put it in.

b:) The English updates on this page are inaccurate because, in fact, they include metropolitan areas [[City of Bradford Metropolitan District]]  and not the city of Bradford itself and/or the Largest Settlement of the City of Bradford Metropolital District. The same applies to Leeds and to other cities who had a major increase of their population onm the UK figures list. Furthermore, the same also applies to Leeds which is a city that is included in the Metropolitan Borough of the City of Leeds. I'd like to focus your attention of the fact that the "Metropolitan Borough of the city of Leeds" has no city rights, it is in fact a borough, while the city of Leeds does. I do believe London is a complicated case and maybe it should be divided into boroughs, yet against it are the facts that a:) London has a mayor for all of the metropolitan area, b:) no borough has the status of a city except for [[Westminster]] and the [[city of London]] "The Square Mile", c:) the residence of the Queen and parliament are actually located in Westmister yet London still claims to be a capital of the United Kingdom. d:) The Lord major of the city of London (square mile) has only ceremonial functions therefore it shows the ceremonial status of the entity, 2:) The mayor of London is yes, A MAYOR, an does not resided in either borough of the "City of London" (The Square Mile) or in Westminster.

c:) With regards to Belgium it's as clear as it gets. All the cities within the Brussels Capital Region have a status of a municipality including the city of Brussels itself as well as places like [[Ukkel]], [[Anderlecht]] etc. The metropolitan area for Brussels can be included in Hardouin's western european "urban areas" list.

d:) Hardouin is totally confused with Poland and I mean totally. Hardouin, for your knowledge I have lived in Warsaw for 5 years and speak Polish. None of the Warsaw boroughs have ever had a status of a city or municipality except for [[Wesola]] (which was a separate city before 2001 and was never part of Warsaw before since Warsaw was created). The word gmina that Hardouin claims he knows the knowledge of is not equivalent of the French word "commune". I will say that in French because Hardouin fails to understand the simple English. ''Le mot "gmina" n'equivaut pas a une commune en France et aucun des gmina urbains de Varsovie n'a jamais ete une ville ou municipalite separee"'' The boroughs of Warsaw had a status of an urban gmina between 1990 and 1999 but by no means no urban gmina had a status of a separate town/city or municipality, neither on paper nor in practice. Gmina is in fact a subdivision of a powiat. Furthermore, Warsaw got rid of that system in 1999 and now each of its 18 subdivisions is called a dzielnica ([[borough]])  Another issue is a powiat. Hardouin fails to understand that powiat is a regional subdivision of a voivodship and that in fact, each of the 16 voivoships is divided into powiats. Some (larger) municipalities have a status of a "miejski powiat"(town powiat) and some don't. Those that do, include ALL and I repeat ALL the city limits within the miejski powiat. There is absolutely no exception to that in all of Poland. Furthermore, for his knowledge, miejski powiat and a rural powiat, for example that of Wroclaw, have 2 completly different powiat local governments. It's not that difficult to understand and in my minds seems clear-cut.

e:) Hardouin should know that Serbia & Montenegro and Croatia are not scheduled to enter the E.U. at this time and in fact only Croatia started any negociations. The only countries that are scheduled to enter it are currently Romania and Bulgaria. Furthemore, Hardouin managed to put that information back on the list yet failed to correct it in any way, for exemple he left Belgrade with a very imprecise number of 1.700 000 inhabitants (that's a very old data). Hardouin claims having a good demographic knowledge yet fails to understand its basic concepts, his knowledge is reflected well in not correcting the erroneous yet very obvious Belgrade data. 

f:) I currently work at Statistics Canada and indeed the "urban zone" concept is a french concept and is not commonly used throughout the European Union. The so called list of "urban zones" Hardouin created and recently updated fails to include urban areas such as [[Tricity]] with over one million habitants. Please, Hardouin, correct your "urban zone" list because it leaves a lot to be desired. It also surprisingly divides the [[Ruhr Area]] into two?!? Sounds bizarre? I would say, very!

g:) The goal of this very list is to present PRECISE city/town/municipality CENSUS or CENSUS ESTIMATES, I repeat "census" or "census estimates" not any imprecise info with regards to the city population. If Hardouin will manage to find the precise French info, not based on an small percentage sampling ( 8 % ) and that does not say it may be wrong by more or less 500 people. I will be more than keen to include it. 

h:) I, for once, am a believer in a concept that "Less is more" and managed to put up a perfect and a very comprehensive list to the public. It does deal with complicated issues in an uncomplicated manner. I do not believe that this list should have bureaucracy-like explanations. It has to be clear-cut and precise. I guess in France, bureaucracy is what makes things go around. :)

[[User:VicFromTheBlock|VicFromTheBlock]] 19:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:VicFromTheBlock, your answer is so crazy I feel a bit bewildered... First of all, will you please stop refering to French this, and French that. I am not even French myself for God's sake! I am English!! And yes, I lived in France for many years, like many English people do these days. So I find your nasty comments ludicrous. 

:Number two, there are so many erroneous things in what you say. I did not add Serbian or Croatian cities for one!! Someone else did, but not me. As for Belgrade, well, I am not in charge of verifying any single data in this list. I only correct things that I know, not things that I don't. 

:Number three, the concept of urban areas is not a French concept at all !! Here in England the UK National Statistics computes "urban areas", and officially so, and they have done it for a long time, maybe before even the French. In France they compute so called "unités urbaines", in other countries they have other names. Urban areas are well recognized all across Europe. Metropolitan area are not, not yet. 

:Number four, Tricity is indeed included in the list of urban areas of the European Union. Double-check. It's listed under Gdansk. 

:Number five, a lot of your data here are only very rough estimates, and not census estimates, for example Spanish or Italian data, or even English data. Since the last censuses in these countries, the estimates for following years are calculated only with small samples, exactly like in France. So either you delete all, or you leave all. You choose. Furthermore, France conducted its last census in 1999. There will be no more censuses after 1999. From 1999 on, the figures officially given by INSEE for big cities will only be estimates based on samples of population, so in your strange vision of reality, French cities will for ever keep their 1999 census figures. Now that's interesting!

:Number six, the meropolitan borough of the City of Leeds DOES HAVE city rights. You should double-check your facts before making peremptory statements. I suggest you visit their website. The metropolitan borough of the City of Leeds is headed by a mayor, and behaves like a a city. There is no such thing as a "City of Leeds" existing inside the metropolitan borough of the City of Leeds. The metropolitan borough of the City of Leeds has 715,200 inhabitants. I don't know how you got your figures of 443,247 inhabitants for the City of Leeds. Probably by grouping some wards at the center of the borough, but then that's total nonsense. If you're not convinced, send an email to the City of Leeds, and ask them. 

:Number seven, you seem to believe that this article is YOUR article, and that anyone foolish enough to dare change something deserves eternal damnation. On Wikipedia, articles are nobody's property, and they can be edited over and over. If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it. [[User:Hardouin|Hardouin]] 22:27, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)