Difference between revisions 6208269 and 9169190 on enwiki

{{past-vfd}}

''For past discussions, see: [[Talk:Desenrascanço/archive1]]''

It's currently (2 June 2004) on Vfd again, if you want to weigh in. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 18:53, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

== Shame on you ==

The word is part of the living language, so there's no reason not to be listed in a dictionary with the nature of Wikipedia. The problem, the drama, arises in the text associated with it in the dictionary. All the topics should have a warning: «COMIC TEXT». I have nothing against history jokes, but it should be stated as so. Without warning, any kidd (or iluminated adult like the one who wrote the article) can arrive to this texts and make the worse of its education. Examples? Joke example #1: «when Dutch started the discouveries». They didn't adventure the seas until 2 or 3 centuries after the portugueses (who were in fact the first ones). Joke #2: «brought one portuguese with them». It is true: the school of nautic sciences of Sagres of Portugal(at first the unique, and afterwords the most considered worldwide), the portugese secret navigation maps and the experience of centuries of portuguese navigators forced them to PAY a portuguese navigator to TEACH, ADVISE and GUIDE them into the dark seas. Joke #3: the colonial war. We're NOT particularly proud of colonial war, unlike other ex colonial contries. But it is a very serious issue due to the amount of severe human and material consequences, not only for portugal but also, and specially, to Angola, Mozambique, Cabo Verde, S. Tomé, Guiné, Timor... This joke is very sad, in fact. Portuguese lost almost 10.000 (ten thousand) men in that 14 years war, and got more than 10.000 permanent wounded, most of them still alive and suffering the war trauma. It is MUCH more, in relative terms, than the americans lost in Vietnam. On the other hand, the ex colonies lost many, many more men than that. And just for curiosity: one of the american generals of US air force, retired and in service in the NATO, said to a Portuguese colleague: «If we had your helicopter pilots the course of vietnam would have been much different». Shame on you.
: I've talk to a man that was long time on the colonial war, due to his job there, a paramedic (enfermeiro) and he confermed that, in fact, the troops did pretend that they were at a battle when they werent; he said it was pretty common. He served in Mozambique. As for African women, he said that the war was in northern Mozambique and in no city, at first, so who went south, did have African women (mainly Mulatas that were very popular) has a lover. The war was in the north cause it was near Tanzania and other coutries that were origin of many man for the guerillas. There wasnt any king of war in Cape verde nor Sao Tome and Principe. --[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 01:09, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

This is one of the most accurate descriptions I have ever knew about the word "desenrascanço".
Obviously, as a part of our culture, it's not easy to be understood by foreigneirs. Also, we must have the conscience that the majority of portuguese people it's not very keen on cultural aspects too.

And, as Pedro said, most Prtuguese get offended right away when the not so good aspects of our poor society are mentioned.

Not only Desenrascanço is a widely used word but it is also considered by some as a "noble art". Of course that, as a Portuguese citizen, I'm glad that my ancestors were so good in this art, or else we would not be known as the discoverers of so many places and cultures. There's not one single Portuguese personality that have achieved something without the use of Desenrascanço! And that's only due to the fact that in this place there's never the necessary means to do something new.

On the other hand, it seems that, in the present moment, Desenrascar it's our only way out of the black hole where this country is.

This might not be an exclusive of Portuguese culture, but we're, no doubt, the best on it!

One othr thing: I'm proud of my country, I'm proud of my language, I'm proud of the portuguese artits and thinkers. But I'm terribly tired of our poor minded governors, I'm ashamed of our political class and, most of all, I'm tired of listening allways the same stories about our glorious past!! And this is one other thing that the portuguese know very well how to do it: crying about the poor luck and glories past.

May we all learn what progress and civilization mean...in a near future.

- Luis Salzedas

* Olá Luís! This is a so celebrated feature that I’ve received emails, that usual spam we usually receive (not that the folks knew I was in the project) about this, with the memo: “the true Portuguese culture, see it in wikipedia”. Glimpse, how many Portuguese are here now, the page is updated on a daily basis and vandalized also almost everyday. I didn’t create the page, but I’m aware of our culture, because I’m a common Portuguese. It is extensively used word in Portugal and the concept extensively applied, especially in the army (they say: “A tropa manda desenrascar”, “the army tells you to apply desenrascanço”). Some visitors of the article called us “cámones” (vernacular Portuguese for foreigners, what they didn’t know that the ones that created the article were also Portuguese). -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 23:36, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Guys,

I've been amazed at what I've read over the past few minutes. "Never has so much been said about so little" Let me make some serious observations without professing to be the holder of all truth:

a)If we're going to write in English, let's make an effort. Otherwise stick to Portuguese.
b)About our past or our history. Well, I certainly feel we have far more to be proud of than we sometimes care to admit, which is certainly "way more" than what can be said for our present.
c)"Desenrascanço" - I think it fits us like a glove. I don´t care where it comes from, who invented the term, whether it's slang or not...IT FITS. But then again, I don´t see it as a rule, but rather as an exception, and maybe we just have a lot of those. Let no-one tell me we're the world's greatest planners, but we make a plan when we have to. 
d)Other cultures have equivalents - "n Boer maak altyd n plan" as any good Afrikaner would say when in need. No different to desenrancanço.
e)There is so much we can talk about, there is so much to be done...Portugal is a haven of opportunity, though strongly weighed by narrow-mindedness, obstinance, jealousy and a mentality that reflects the less interesting, the less fortunate, and the poorer aspects of our inheritance. Let's give that part of it a break and work on the other aspects. Carlos.

== This is culture ==

"It is disputed whether this article should be included in Wikipedia."
If it shouldn't, every article about culture should be excluded from wikipedia. It needs NPOV and a more scientifical approach. 
I'm a college student and it is really part of our culture. And used it a lot. It is really teached in college and army. We should not include war but what they are taught in the army. My brothers told me something about that also. It is cute to talk about "fado", and other "nice" things, when some things are not "normal" to be talked about, everyone goes crazzy. That "daily life" is very POV and unrealistic. I'll try to NPOV and search for studies about this. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 14:51, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

== My 0.02EUR ==

I would like to say that I agree with the remarks above about the colonial war, which was much more than just play war and chase african women. I'm sure the thousands of soldiers that lost arms and legs and the families of the thousands that died wouldn't agree with this text. I know people that fought that war and lived and their stories are no fun and games.

About the Dutch thing, well... There is one more reason why there were portuguese people there, because some foreign ships (some with the blessing of their governments) pirated portuguese and spanish ships carrying precious goods. And some portuguese men of questionable honor and knowledge about the portuguese commerce routes and maps didn't mind to sell their skill for a good payment or a share of the loot.

About desenrascanço, well that is a known feature of the portuguese people (not a positive one sometimes). If we follow the word's meaning from "enrascar" (to get stuck/ in trouble) to "desenrascar" (to get out of trouble in a quick and dirty way), we get to "desenrascanço" as "the act of getting out of trouble in a quick and dirty way". This is more appropriately "the ability to hack his way out of trouble".


== MacGyver was Portuguese ==

The only factual and undeniable thing that was expressed in the previous, uncensored version of this page is that, as many people across Europe and the world know the Portuguese are indeed experts in the "short-fast-last hour- fixing" skill. But that does not mean it is a unique characteristic feature of Portuguese. It would be more correct to argue that the Portuguese, due to a series of circunstances, are more acostummed to dealing with situations where this kind of "skill" is imperative, as anyone who needs to encounter, daily, unexploreds situations, like... MacGyver.

In conclusion, MacGyver came from Portugal because, if not, how the hell would he be so fit to accomodate to all those impossible situations... Hey...! Even the most brilliant physicist has a bad day, so... 

As for the rest (Portuguese army and Portuguese politicians), let's just say it was not entirely accurate... funny, but not accurate!

Maybe the uncensored version should be exposed somewhere else (to who ever brought this up in the first place).

As for My 0,02€, I do agree with your explanation of the Portuguese aboard other ships, but I must confess I liked the other one better!!!

The word is Portuguese, with no translation to English!

== Desenrascanço ==

Just a little help:
In the Portuguese dictionary it states:

enrascar | v. tr. | v. refl.    (transitive verb, reflex verb)
 enrascar
 Conjugar 
de rasca

v. tr.(transitive verb), 
apanhar em rasca;enredar;embaraçar cabos, velas;
(to mengle ropes, threads, sails)
fig.(figurative), 
fazer cair em armadilha;
(to induce into entrapment)
criar dificuldades;
(to create difficulties)
atrapalhar;
(to stand in the way)
encravilhar;

v. refl.(reflex verb), 
meter-se em enrascada;
meter-se em problemas.
(getting in trouble)

------------------------------------------
therefor, "des" a negation prefix, means exactly the opposite.
in the portuguese dictionary also:

desenrascar | v. tr. | v. refl. 
 desenrascar
 Conjugar 

v. tr., 
desembaraçar o que estava enrascado;
livrar alguém de apuros;

v. refl., fam., 
livrar-se de uma dificuldade.
(to overcome adversity)
-------------------------------------------

In common language, the word is used to express an ability to solve a problem without having the knowledge or the adequate tools to do so, by use of imaginative resources or by applying knowledge to new situations.

== Totaly disputed ==
I think its non-sence that the article presents the {{ msg:TotallyDisputed }} message. I'll delete that from the article, tomorrow if no-one disagrees. The other message I'll exclude wright away! I was discussed in the deletion debate! --[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 23:26, 27 May 2004 (UTC)



:If the article is subject to a dispute, then it must have that warning. The paragraph about the discoveries is just stupid. 

:Desenrascanço is a feature of some portuguese subcultures confined to some non-representative groups and to the end of the XX th century. You can’t relate the concept to the discoveries or to academic activities in the XV th century. Or, at least, I would like to see the prove of that relation. And “Desenrascanço” isn’t an exclusive feature of   some Portuguese sub-cultures. There are other sub-cultures in other places  with equivalent concepts. 

:So, the article, as it is now, remains under dispute and the warning must be kept in place. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 00:13, 28 May 2004 (UTC)


== Here, have another 0.02EUR ==

I don't really know why this is in dispute. I think that every portuguese (hu)man knows for a fact (well, a popular myth really) that portuguese people are experts in doing stuff at the last minute (if there is a deadline to something, it is a mathematical certainty that 90% of the people will do it on the last day before timeout). I objected to the form of the previous text, and still believe that there is some tweaking worth doing but this is a fact. Is is a quality sometimes, as it shows a culture for ingeniousness (if there is such a word) and use of that thing inside one's head, and a fault some other times, as people tend to rely on their "superhuman" ability to fix emergencies.

This is actually a trait common to (at least) all western cultures, solve some critical problems in a MacGyver way and soon you get addicted to it. The portuguese are different in that this trait is seen by most as intrinsic to the portuguese culture itself. So, there is no dispute.

At first I found that this entry was just a joke but now I don't think so anymore. If there is something that defines the portuguese people is "desenrascanço". Without it, 500 years ago nobody would have dared to go into the unknown sea in their tiny ships (by today's standards). They did it because they thought that there would be something to gain from it and because they believed in themselves.

If you've seen the movie Apollo 13, desenrascanço was trying to stick a square filter into a round hole, with just some random parts and duct tape. Sea exploration was just like space exploration and you would see portuguese people trying to go to Mars if only we had the money... :)

== You all must be joking ==

The referred word "'''desenrascar'''" is commonly used in '''Portugal'''. There is no historical or intelectual value on the way it's employed or on its meaning. Discussing the word has the same added value as discussing the '''Nike''' campaign with the slogan "'''Just do it!'''".
* This is not a sailing store. This isn't a joke nether. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 14:54, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

==Praxis==
That stuff about PRAXE is absolutely wrong. But all the first part is correct (Pedro Sá, 27.05.2004)

Really? I'm a "quartanista" and an academic student of Oporto - ISEP. And for here it is absolutely correct! --[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 15:01, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

:ISEP is one of many academic institutions in Portugal. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 19:24, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

== Praxis - Shame on you again! ==

If you want to write such a number of non-senses about the academic praxes, please do it on the ground of your half a dozen years university, wich by no means can't support the idea of true tradition. «Praxe» has nothing to do with that silly and tipically «freshman» (CALOIRO!) ideas. You may always write what you want, but please put, at least, the 700 years old university of Coimbra and its 700 years old academic traditions aside of that article. But just for your information: the so called «Código da praxe» (originally from Coimbra, of course), is a recent code (very criticized when published, in the 40's, if i'm not mistaken); the clothe of the freshment IS NOT WHITE (!!!), it should be like the others; the academic clothe IS NOT FOR USE ONLY IN THE PRAXE!! It was, historically, the oficial clothe of students, BY LAW, and nobody could even enter the university without it (it stoped in first republic). A lot of things colud be said, but it simply doesn't worth it... But, very important, praxe has nothing to do with desenrascanço: this is a stupid conlusion from the generation «rasca», probably! The simple reading of old academic texts, books, or, more simply, a 5 min. talk with an old student of coimbra (or even porto...) will teach you that praxis is everything except these little bourgeois rituals of humiliating and giving orders and tasks to the caloiros. I am, of course, a long term veteran from coimbra.

: You're gonne with History! You're alive since the 19th century? Donnot talk about Oporto traditions that in the past where different (and completly humilliating and unhuman!), and Codigo de Praxe in Porto is not written. You are a long veteran, you are... if you still study, so forget it! Things change, and you're not part of it, no longer. And today, it is like that. Sorry if it isn't like the old times. Of course, praxis is not only that, at least in Oporto. But in most (new) universities it is just that, nothing more. In here, it is still a culture, but loosing to the modern "individualism"-[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 20:01, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
:: I completly agree that praxis has nothing to do with freshman. That is just an initialization. But we are not discussing what's praxis in here. I'll start an article about praxis in Oporto pretty soon, after collecting some documents that I used to had. In the past, some praxis was pretty violent (100 yrs ago). We still retain their violent tradition, but without violence, used to only for scaring Freshmen.
:: Freshmen are only allowed to use the academic cloths after the inicialization period is over because they mean the entrance into the academic world. Oporto's academic tradition is somewhat different from Coimbra, but presents many similarities, especially today. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 23:26, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

== Shame on you III ==

1. Another ignorance example: you are ... if you think that being a coimbra veteran is necessarilly being still a student. Go study, as i've already suggested, anf find out what i mean before lowering the conversation level and insulting the others. A sad but expressive example of your universaty culture level, indeed. Since I don't really believe you'll stand the job, i'll advance that you're not talking to a university colleague, but to an ex student (from the real university and from a real course, not from some 3 or 4 years institute).

2. Loved SPECIALLY to hear that from the 80's or 90's to today there's a step between old days and today... LOL

3. I don't give a damn to porto tradition's. It's a fact that it started (with the foundation of the university - in 1911 (?) or so, i suppose), as you must know, with the copying of the coimbra model, the arrival of ex coimbra students and the porto students that were forced to frequent some disciplines at coimbra. But you had time enough to convert it to something totally different from coimbra. So, as I wrote before, do what you want and write what you want. It'll be a problem of yours. Simply leave coimbra out of that.

: You must be an intern of a mental institution, old man. You are making me ailing; you just say things that are not legitimate. There’s praxis in my academy since 1899 at least (there are records from that period). My college was founded in 1852. I’ll stop it where. 

:Já estou enjoado de o ler a sério, já mete nojo, e olhe, você é que falou na “geração rasca”, veja o que fala, pelas suas palavras sem qualquer valor. A universidade de Coimbra é a grande causadora do atraso cultural nacional porque impediu a criação de outras. Actualmente, está a acontecer o mesmo, mas nem vou discutir com velhos burros e estúpidos, vá meter nojo para outro sítio. Você é mesmo da cultura do empata, espero que a sua geração desapareça do país logo, para este se poder desenvolver mais e deixar dessa mentalidade pequena! Não precisamos de esconder nada da nossa cultura. Há que mostrar o que o país é e não o atraso que era no seu tempo... um país que pouco conheci, mas que ainda deixou relíquias... tal como vocês e os velhos desdentados. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 22:15, 29 May 2004 (UTC)


Como é apanágio dos arrivistas e eu já previra , partiu o verniz, jovem. Um digno exemplo de cultura. Não merece nem resposta nem regresso a esta página.


** Ladies... you are being quite fundamentalist and going into a level of detail which is redundant for a topic that's not even about PRAXIS!! The fact is: for a foreign, this text about PRAXIS is absolutely correct an provides a good overview! Besides, it fits quite well into the context of DESENRASCANCO. That's the idea! Let's DESENRASCATE our way out of this PRAXIS talk :)

== Presidente brincalhão? ==

O sr. Sampaio já tem em várias alocuções apanagiado esta virtude! Que remédio, tem que desenrascar-se.

== should remove praxis from the rest of "Desenrascanço" ==

The entire subject of praxis is something completely apart form the "desnrascanço", and so should be removed if the dictionary wants to have consistency. 
One of the most important if not the essencial characteristic of "desenrascanço" is that it CAN NOT BE TAUGHT. If it could, it would become a tecnhique, which could be described and passed to others in an organized way, like planning. 
The "desenrascanço" is the contrary to that. The capacity to put it in practice comes with experience (and who knows maybe some inate tendency). The person is left alone (and confused) with the problem without any suggestion or solution or help, yet the problem has to be solved. So the person has to use the imagination and invent skills to solve it and go ahead.
In the praxis it is not so. Not wishing to go deeper in the praxis subject, which is a long story, but in the Praxis the person is told specific things to do, pressed by the older students. The person is deprived of free will and personal iniciative and if the person refuses to do exactly what the others chose for the person, the person is punished. It has nothing whatsoever to do with desenrascanço.   ***

Completly disagree. It is taugh, everything can be taught, and that very especifically. 
Eu não vos percebo. Vocês têm vergonha do quê? Isto está a ficar muito chato, pois parecem querer esconder isto ou abafar o assunto. Tanto que chegam ao ponto de tentar por NPOV e acabam por por POV. --[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 12:25, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Mas quem é que convenceu este so called pedro de que possui autoridade para ensinar o que quer que seja a quem quer que seja? Nunca vi ninguém tão cego aos argumentos dos outros  e apenas para defender um artigo humorístico.

  /*Ricardo Veloso, Porto*/
   *** Just a little comment: do not try to make a pro-praxis/anti-praxis discussion out of
  this.
   Having this in mind, PLEASE, do not go posting about brain-washes or anti-praxis 
  advertising, because it's just YOUR personal opinion. Remember: another one, like mine, (and 
  of millions that ACCTUALLY WERE in the praxis) is that the praxis has many faults, but lack 
  of initiative’s just not one of them. AND, if YOU WERE NOT in praxis or watched praxis 
  sessions, '''it is obvious YOU shouldn't be deciding if there is "desenrascanço" in any praxis 
  '''situation or not.''' 
   It's understandable that the fact that praxis occupies a major part of the article raises 
  some discussion, but that “desenrascanço” in not in the praxis is out of the question. 
   '''FACT IS: asking for the accomplishment of certain near-impossible tasks ''IS'' a part of the 
  '''praxis tradition. And IF THERE ARE situations that train/teach you "desenrascanço" skills, 
  '''praxis sessions often promote them with most enthusiastic and humorous fervour.''' 
   Try to convince a woman to offer you her underwear at an academic celebration/party just 
  because someone thought it was important for freshman to socialise and you might have a 
  picture of what I am talking about. It's just too bad that praxis' nature doesn't allow it to 
  be advertised, and that a fake image of it remains because of bad examples or scandals one 
  might have heard about, exactly as it is in a witch-hunt.
  
   And congratulations to whoever created this article, because it DOES show a part of our 
  culture, even if it (obviously) does not include EVERY man in our society and not EVERYONE 
  uses the skill. At least in the big cities, there are few other skills so widely used 
  as "desenrascanço" and the last-minute, unplanned, sometimes irresponsible solutions, be it 
  in one's office, university, home, or even sexual life. If you’re Portuguese you might not 
  know this term, but you at least surely know Portuguese’s typical way of working.
  /*Ricardo Veloso, Porto*/

== Desenrascanço and Masturbation ==

Desenrascanço can be too MASTURBATION. It's same what usual in same parts of the country to say:
"Tive no desenrascanço" as being the act of masturbation.

It's the act of doing something with what you have in your hands.
:LOL. the word is used widely. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 20:01, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

== The Art ==

I think the best way of translating desenrascanço into english is [[The Art of Improvisation]].

For whatever reason, the portuguese are one of the most inventive and imaginative people on this planet, despiste being pessimistics at the best of times.

== I'm a native portuguese speaker ==

and this whole article is junk. The word in question won't be found even in a portuguese dictionary, being nothing more than an extremely colloquial entanglement of other words. In fact, I never heard of it before today.

Not being even a portuguese word, I wonder what this article is doing in an english encyclopedia. After the first paragraph it's nothing but gobledygook.

It should be deleted immediately. [[User:Cbraga|cbraga]] 18:08, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)

: fantastic! There is another word to desenrascanço: "Desemerdar-se" but that's a not good one.

Almost everyone in here is a "native portuguese speaker". Didn't you notice? You didnt ear? Do you go out usually? -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 18:47, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

== I'm a native speaker also ==

Quite frankly the word is not to be found in any current dictionary I've consulted.

Presumably, in a language with decent dictionaties, that would mean the word was invented on the spot, and not in use by a large community. It happens thought we don't have decent and complete dictionaries of portuguese nowadays.

Many widely used slang words are not found in dictionaries over here, except perhaps in the old Dicionário Morais (last edition circa 1950), witch is truly enciclopedic and contains, in excruciating detail, most slang, regional and coloquial variations in usage at the time, and many more of historical interest.

Now... about desenrascanço: the word results from a legitimate (according to gramar rules) derivation of the verb (des)enrascar, witch exists and is widely documented. Even if that was not the case the word is in common usage and we (native speakers) all are perfectly aware of it's meaning. It's also true the Praxis tradition is somewhat related to the ideia, or at least that's what was generally accepted at the time I went to college. The problem with this article is only it's un-enciclopedic style, but perhaps wikipedia is not yet another enciclopedia, and we can accept a more informal style. Also the english should be polished, since there are a few mistakes (I've personally tried to do that).

== 'Desenrascanço' and the "Art of Muddling Through" ==

There are similarities between desenrascanço and "muddling through", see Lindeblom, C.E. (1959), The Science of Muddling Through, Public Administration Review, Spring, pp. 79-88 and Lindeblom, C.E. (1979), Still Muddling Not Yet Through, Public Administration Review, Nov/Dec, pp. 517-526. Lindblom description of management as "Muddling Through" is very similar to the portuguese notion of "desenrascanço", to manage by one self (by cunning and possibly previous experience more than mere trial and error) a way out of dire situations. Lindblom is claimed to have been precursor of Quinn's notion of logical incrementalism (Quinn, James Brian (1978) Strategic Change as 'Logical Incrementalism', Sloan Management Review, Fall, pp.7-21.

== "Desenrascanço" in dictionary and tales ==

The word is probably originated from portuguese Lisbonite slang "estar 'á rasca'" or "ver-se à rasca". This last expression means to face difficulties or to be in trouble, i.e. to be in dire straits(see it quoted in the entry "Rasca" in Lexicoteca Moderno Dicionario da Lingua Portuguesa, vol. 2, Circulo de Leitores, Lisboa, 1985, p. 857). The word "rasca" itself, according to that dictionary entry, means (in popular parlance) ordinary, vulgar, meritless. In popular parlance in Lisbon (and indeed in the army), "enrascar" meant to put someone in an undesirable situation (or, sometimes, to punish). The person put in that situation would, naturally, try to get out of it, naturally by cunning and this was highly values in the military subculture that cultivates 'esprit de corps', especially if it was done without putting anyone else in trouble, better still if "saving" others along out of the same trouble (see the entry "desenrascar" in Lexicoteca Moderno Dicionario da Lingua Portuguesa, vol. 1, Circulo de Leitores, Lisboa, 1985, p. 770: 'to de-entangle what was "enrascado"' and (pop) 'to get out of trouble'). As for this to be strictly a portuguese characteritic, I doubt. It can be found in other Europen, African and Arab cultures too (stories of clever foxes/rabits, of outsmarting, etc. are widely found in popular tales).

== here... 500 EUROS to the last comments ==

I think some information that is in the talk should be putted in the article. We also need to specify that is not a original or unique Portuguese characteristic but rather part of the Portuguese culture, or sub-culture has you prefer. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 14:31, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

== Em portugues para compreenderem de vez ==

O termo e uso da expressao desenrascar provem da necessidade de resolver situacoes que, por falta de meios, recursos e/ou tecnica, nao podem ser resolvidas de forma correcta.
E de estranhar que tanta confusao se cria em volta do tema, considerando que esta nao e a forma normal de actuacao da generalidade da populacao. 
Nao obestante ser utilizada em algum periodo da vida, desenrascar provem das camadas mais desfavorecidas da populacao, o que, para grado geral do pais nao representa a generalidade do povo portugues.

== Desenrascanço isn't part of academic culture ==

The article now states that "Desenrascanço a has a role in the academic culture in most educational institutions." This is incorrect. Desenrascanço is part of rituals practiced by some students. Desenrascanço is seen by the academic community (that's those that go to the university to teach, study and make research) as precisely something that universitary education should avoid.  [[User:Joao|Joao]] 01:48, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
: Look João, I dont know in which University you are from. Please come to Oporto in "Queima das fitas", and tell me if that is some. Go to Aveiro, Braga, Coimbra, etc etc, and tell me if that is some. In reality I would prefer that[what you said] would be true, cause in excess, quality is lost [and it is being lost]. The best students of my college are (mostly) all academic, they went into competitions are they are winners (many times). But now, obviously, they dont have much time to academic affairs, like me. As faar has I see, most universities are pretty academic (obviously that is noticeble in the first yrs, while older students has lack of time to those events). It is not correct to say "academic culture" cause most teachers are not part of these rituals, but "academist students' culture" it is correct. Please, João, dont POV again the article to your view, I know your opinion is contrary and to excuse a "cultural feature". I'm really dissapointed with some comments of Portuguese ppl in here, they seem very rude, nationalist, stupid and pseudo-intelectual - what is not typical of the people and the country that I know, Portuguese are, by norm, very peaceful and easy-living. Even there's a comment that "desenrascanzo" (English speakers use this one, and not "desenrascanco", if you dont have the ç in the keyboard) is part of people that have less means, undereducated, etc. That is simply not true and to offende Portuguese people. When talking to real people, in college, work and street, they are not ashamed of this, but it seems that some "intelectuals" are. I dont see desenrascanzo as a good or a bad thing, it is just a feature that has cultural value in Portugal, like saudade, so it deserves to be comment. Obviously everyone in the world has that capability, but it is not a feature of their culture. There is a comment of an anti-desenrascanzo using the reference "geração rasca" (geração = generation), "rasca" is enrascanço (the opposite of desenrascanzo), what was appplied to people of my generation, as if we dont apply desenrascanzo in our lifes, that "sentense" was used by a Portuguese Prime minister, Cavaco Silva, in TV. He (the old man that commented here) is against it, but he is imerged in the enrascaanzo (sub-)culture. --[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 10:48, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

::Now I understand why the article isn't NPOV. It's because you believe that your view and the view of the people you know is the representative one. But for this article to be NPOV, it must represent not only your point of view, but also the point of view of people you call intelectuals. If portuguese intelectuals don't like to be associated with "desenrascanço", then that must be represented in the article. So, I don't understand why some sentences stating the posision of intelectals were removed. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 12:43, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:: Portuguese political style that you have. Again, disagree. These "intelectuals" are people that are ashamed of their culture, they dont disagree, they just dont like it. Unrepresentative. POV is what '''YOU''' putted on the article, stating "some universities" when that some is "pratically all". That is POV. If there's POV of the "intelectuals" of this article, so there should be also POV of the normal people of this article. And everything that was written should be putted back, and I'll add my own opinion too. That's not a realistic position, that what you have, when someone tries to mold the text, to ones view, stating in last, descredibilizing the what was writen before, it is pretty POV and that are only personal views of yours, not representing any know sector of the Portuguese society, I've never heard in life, anyone fighting or against desenrascanço, this is in reality the 1st time, and I was pretty suprised, in my view, the reason is... it is written in ENGLISH and not in PORTUGUESE. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 15:15, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
* And... in the style that you like to write this topic should be "possibily desenrascanço is not part of academic culture, but some critics disagree" --[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 16:29, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)


:::If you never heard in life, anyone fighting  against desenrascanço, then you need to go out more. The porpuse of universitary education is to fight the desenrascanço culture. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 16:40, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
:::: I wished I've a day to stay at home (which is rare), I only go there to sleep (mostly). This is your view: "universitary education is to fight the desenrascanço" bahhhh! really? You're crazy! It must be from the intence heat that is now Portugal. also, I cant  stand the heat, but i'm drinking a lot of water. Like a guy said in Vfd "software engineering" is mostly desenrascanzo. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 16:58, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:::::[[Q.E.D.|Quod Erat Demonstrandum]] [[User:Joao|Joao]] 17:05, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
:::::: '''Vox populi, vox dei.''' (Portuguese: ''Voz do povo, voz de Deus'', English: The voice of the people is the voice of God)-[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:13, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

== What the hell is this??? Shame on every one here!! ==

'''Wikipedia is meant to be''' a site where people get '''real, exact''' and free info on something -  a web encyclopedia built by '''accumulated knowledge from the community'''.<br>
The article here and this discussion is not helping. Wikipedia is not a forum to post jokes or chat. What you are doing here is something for what Portuguese people is well known''': vandalism and lack of respect for the community'''.<br>
The playground is else where! This is a place for science and collaboration.
<br>
The fact is "Desenrascar" exists, is a Portuguese slang word. It means work out on something when there's no time for planning.
It seems to me that it doesn't fit in Wikipedia (or at least in it's English version).<br>
'''No one can claim the article is accurate. It's just a joke and common (non)sense'''.

Ricardo

== NPOV and accuracy ==

I think the article is NPOV enough, it needs to be revised by a non-Portuguese. About the accuracy of the article, It is now accurate, because the inaccuracy was in "the discoveries", and I maneged to mantain it has a mere curiosity and myth (as it probably is). -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 23:47, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:The article still has some problems:

*The paragraph about Siemens is an urban myth
** disagree. WHAT??? Read www.publico.pt once in a while, it's free.[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 03:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
***So, Siemens came to Portugal because of desenrascanço. They are as insane as I was when I started writing in this page. Please, send me the newspaper article. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 12:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
** search it! Surely they didnt come to Portugal because of that, but that was a reason to keep in here. I think the company will now open offices in Lisbon (the article comments about Oporto siemens). --[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:07, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
*"Academic culture" isn't the same thing as a "students subculture". Please read [[academic]]. The general acepted meaning of Academic is different of the meaning that students give it. True academics (in the general sense of the word) despise  the desenrascanço culture.
** agree/disagree I know that internationally "Academic" has another meaning, it should be stated in the article. And nationally It can also mention the full universitary staff. But in the article is mentioned "academic Students"[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 03:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)~
***English wikipedia is international. The article suggests that [[academic]] culture in Portugal is all about desenrascanço, parties and stupid rituals. It is not. [[Academic]] culture in Portugal is like [[academic]] culture everywhere in the world. Is about teaching, learning and researching. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 12:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
**** Respect the others, it is stupid for you, but not for others, you are free not to like, but it is rude and of low-level to talk like that of asomething that you dont know (typical of Portuguese pseudo-intelectuals) and freedom ends when you try to put yourself above the freedom of the others. Academy in Portugal it is not the same has in the rest of the world. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:07, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
*the position of the critics of the academic praxis isn't represented. They don't agree with the positive description of the freshman reception given. They would say that freshmen join the rituals because they ave no mind of their one, because they were brainwashed or because they were threatened.
** THIS IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT DESENRASCANÇO! about facts/myths on praxis, it should be in another article.[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 03:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
** standing still for an hour is positive??? god, that is what I most hated. threatened? are you nuts?
***Critics still disagree with the reasons given to explain why students whant to participate in the praxis. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 12:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
*** Blah Blah Blah you're anti-praxis, you're free to be. Do posters, papers, ads or something, the wiki is not a mean for you to spreed your prejudice.-[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:07, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
*the position of people from Lisbon and Coimbra isn't represented. Some people from Lisbon would claim that Praxis is a tradition from  Oporto and Coimbra. They wouldn't agree that the desenrascanço is part of the culture in '''most''' educational institutions. Some people from Coimbra would claim that Praxis has nothing to do with desenrascanço.[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 03:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
** I've putted info that in Lisbon this tradition is diminishing, in the rest of the country is still growing. About Coimbra, is almost the same has in Porto, I now their praxis.
* the part about the military is outdated. Portugal will soon have a professional army, and desenrascanço culture in the army is no longer what it used to be.
** Soon is not now! read again what you wrote in this paragraph. I've have a brother that was a professional military and he told me the same as the other. And others the same, and others, and others...[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 03:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
*The article no longer states that desenrascanço is a declining and minor feature of portuguese society. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 02:37, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
** I really dont see how can it be seen as declining. Can "saudade" be declining. read again what you commented.[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 03:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
***Do you believe that "saudade" is a feature of the modern portuguese society? I don't. The desenrascanço culture is consequence of underdevelopment, lack of culture and education and must decline when a country becomes more developed. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 12:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
**** that's your opinion. I disagree. You seem also to have lack of culture and lack of respect for the Portuguese culture. So why are you commenting on an article that is about Portuguese culture? Do you think that you are best than the poor ignorant that doesnt know how to write? Are you happier than him? Do you have more culture than him? Are you smarter than him? blah blah blah? I dont think so. What do you understand as culture? Going to the theatre? Opera? MOVIES???? Solving equations? I think when someone looses part of his culture he is not developing, he is becoming a monkey! -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:07, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Pedro,

Congratulations!

I like you interpretation of the [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|Neutral point of view]]. "Your positions should be excluded from wikipedia because you are anti-praxis". That's the most original interpretation I ever seen.

I have to remind you the  aficial wikipedia policy:

''The neutral point of view policy states that one should write articles without bias, representing all views fairly.''

''The neutral point of view policy is easily misunderstood. The policy doesn't assume that it's possible to write an article from just a single unbiased, "objective" point of view. The policy says that we should fairly represent all sides of a dispute, and not make an article state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct.''


PS - I will not search for the newspaper article. The claim that Siemens stays in Portugal because of desenrascanço is yours. You have the burden of proof. [[User:Joao|Joao]] 00:55, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

: Bah! it is true. You are not neutral, not a bit, the article is about desenrascanço and you are trying to descredibilize it by all means, even leading the article to other areas, that are not important in here, and worst to prejudice and unverified claims. Showing both sides in praxis means someone from the praxis that became against it (there's a movie about that, "rasganço" - the final praxis in the Academy.) and not people ("gatos pingados", "a clear minority") like you that are outsiders. If you dont know praxis is apllied to everyone in a real academic praxis, not only to freshman. We cannot state in the article "Possibly, gipsies eat children at breakfast" for you to be satisfied and in your view to become NPOV. Many things are said about "secret" societies. Give me a break. Siemens? Subscribe to "Publico Plus" and search. www.publico.pt search for "siemens" -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 11:05, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

== Epá... desenmerdem-se ==

I've never seen such a long and out-of-purpose discussion...
But any way...
Let me contribute to it.

"Desenrascanso" means, as it was said, but this time in a more common language: "-Hey, solve it now, and fast!!! Don't care how, just get that shit going!"

Clear enough?

By the way...
It is not academic, it is not political it not of any association... it's just a popular term that goes a whole lot back in time.

By the way nr 2:
There is also another portuguese term for it: "Desenmerdar" which translates by the letter to "Get out of that shit!" 
Enmerdar - To put in shitty situation
(Des)enmerdar - Exactly the opposite.

Now for every so-called veteran, freshmeate etc... is desenmerdar an academic term? do you really believe that?

hehehe
Well, regards,

MagiCminD
Lisboa Portugal

: I've mentioned it in the talk, but that is too rude. And, yes it is also used by some people in the Academy, but it is seen as rude and un-academic. Obviously "desenrascanço" is not exclusive to institutions, it is used there because that is used by the Portuguese populace. The discussion was great because of that the article is now very good! I never expected it. It's a pitty that noone contributes to other Articles about Portugal. Wikipedia is now becoming popular in Portugal because of this article, LOL! -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 23:49, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

== Other makeup, the same bullshit... ==

It doesn't matter how fine you paint it, how well your article is written, it will always be bullshit.<br />
1st - If you want to write articles about Portuguese words/subjects, there is a '''Portuguese section''' of wikipedia . And I can tell you, that section really needs serious and well intentioned collaboration.<br />
2nd - If you still want to write an article about that (in the '''Portuguese section'''), you should think about starting to define "Enrascar/Desenrascar", the main words and those which are really used in common Portuguese language.<br />
* neutral. wikipedia is not a diccionary, why that info should only be in the Portuguese wiki? But in fact, I've found in diccionaries and Enciclopedias the word "desenrascar".
3rd - "Desenrascar" is generally used by all Portuguese people not only by university/army students (nor even mostly used by).<br />
* Agree. That is said in the article. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:52, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
4th - Siemens (no matter what they say to the newspaper) choose Portugal because of '''Portuguese's low salaries''', not because Portuguese's qualities of "desenrascar". The same way Siemens moved factories to other countries.<br />
* false. This is not the king of business that needs to go to china to win money. About the low salarie, you are being ingenuous. -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:52, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
6th - Thinking and acting like you, there would be '''much more interesting words''' to about (some) Portugueses' culture... I can imagine:<br />
'''Palerma''' (also said '''Pauerma''' by a well know portuguese politician) - is a common insult in the Portuguese language. Is not considered obscene and is generally use as a "tender" way to affront someone.<br />
A person (usually kids) who is, and act in a silly way. Someone who doesn't really think about the consequences of his acts. An irresponsible person.
* what??? 00:52, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)~
(...)
<br />
Yes it's true, "Wikipedia is now becoming popular in Portugal", but not "because of this article". It's because it's being used as a joke-mail spread all over Portugal. '''Every one is making fun of wikipedia'''.
<br /><br />
Once more I state:<br />
This is '''not the goal of wikipedia'''. <br />
This is not a site to place '''silly jokes'''.<br />
Do not try to take advantage of people who don't know our language.<br />
This way you will destroy this very helpful tool and help those that state that this kind of community permissive sites (wiki) can not be taken seriously.

Já chega de brincarem com o trabalho dos outros.

Ricardo

: as for the work of others, desenrascanço is in votes for delete. Nobody is playing with the language. I'm not interrested in that. I really think that is a cultural affair, so it needs to be stated, if if you think that is not a positive, or that makes one laughs... that doesnt count, the aim is INFORMATION. I dont see anyone joking, In college people has already talked to me about it and they said "Oh yes, that is true, how it get there?" answer: "simple, portuguese people. Me included!" nobody that I was talking laugh they were just admired how it get here. Normally the info about Portugal is the same BS, complety unaccurate. Even if this is subjective is more accurate than most info about Portugal. Leave desenrascanço alone and go edit something cool about Portuguese culture Sart with [[Festivities of Portugal]] or something.-[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:52, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:: The problem is your BS (yes, yours cause you were the one who post it here, for does who don't kown how it got here) is really unaccurate. And yes, why don't '''you''' edit something interesting and accurate about Portugal?
::"In college people has already talked to me about it", Oh, now I see why your article was posted... to help you getting friends at college! Hey, you're really great, as garinas devem andar doidas... you must be the King of The World, (at least in classes:)
::My problem isn't making people laugh about some subject even if it's about Portugal or portuguese people. My problem is I take wikipedia seriouslly and you and your article don't. Ricardo

* HAHAHAHA. I come regulary to wikipedia, the majority of people dont, I've only written the part of University where I'm confortable with it. Do you know that you contradict largely? What are you trying to gain?
E, vai gozar com a tua mãe que anda aí a dá-lo. Não gostas, não engulas! Tas-te a armar em raínha da cocada preta?--[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 19:15, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC) Eu não gosto mas já vi que tu engoles sempre...
:* Why are you so irritated? Why are you insulting? Don't you have any more arguments or have I found exacly what your goal is? I don't have much more time to loose with you and your stupid talk. Want to do anything usefull? I'm here to talk and help, but don't count on me for bullshitting wikipedia has you doing now. Ricardo
:: Idiota! -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 21:14, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
:: Idiota és tu! que ainda não foste capaz de dizer nada de jeito e os teus argumentos são o insulto.

::: '''Mais idiota que tu é díficil!''' Estás a passar de analfabeto de nem saber como funciona a wikipédia. Deves pensar que mesmo não sabendo a língua, as pessoas aqui são estúpidas como tu, aqui só se vêm pessoas inteligentes e cultas. '''que fazes aqui?''' 
::: Aliás deves ter sido tu, o estúpido que andava sempre a atacar a página. E, ó trengo, não fui eu quem criou o artigo! Agora que o defendo, defendo sim! E, olha que nem me sinto muito parte dessa cultura do desenrasca (mas sei que é parte da cultura portuguesa) excepto nas praxes que tive que fazer, coisa que me afastei, mas que também defendo por ser um aspecto cultural único, nunca me dediquei a praxar caloiros, o que recusava sistematicamente , mas a entender essa forma de vida. Continua lá com a tua idiotisse. Tadinhas das pessoas que estão a ser enganadas por mim, ó coitadinhos. Caso não saibas os anglo-saxónicos têm consciencia de aspectos culturais e lhe dão valor, ao contrário de nabos semi-alfabetizados como tu. '''És mesmo parvo''', moço! Sai do meu pé, ó totó! Como diziam os gregos: ''abelteros'' -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 10:54, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
::: "'''Mais idiota que tu é díficil!'''" é para veres como és habilidoso e grandioso na tua idiotice... e não, não ataquei pagina nenhuma, nem nunca fiz nenhuma alteração ao artigo. Aqui, quem atacou alguma coisa foste tu, com os teus insultos desmedidos e apagando opiniões. E mais, nas minhas opiniões sobre o artigo eu nunca referi nada relativamente à praxe, numca foi esse o meu problema, discordo dele pela abordagem nada exacta e pretenciosa.

Nobody can take this serious, What they teach, is what they learn "i don't care " desenrasque-se, it's the main goal in Portugal ?, perphap's a search for Richard Zwentzerg to remember what it is written here. YES delete, delete it. YES this is a shame for the few people who cares, "unfortunnaly" few ... few people.

António Rodrigues

== Don't take the part for the all... ==

''"Portuguese people strongly believe it to be one of the their most valued virtues and a living part of their culture"''. I'm portuguese and I don't. Please, this all page doesn't reflect the Portuguese culture or values. Ilídio.

== my .02&#8364; ==

Just thought of adding a little something....

I'm a student from IST, allegedly one of portugal's higher examples of the culture of desenrascanço.... and quoting a Professor from the chemistry dept, "Engineering is the art of desenrascanço"....

Also, many companies that hire IST-graduated engineers (especially Computer Science & Engineering, (pt) LEIC), see the ability of desenrascanço as one of the greater qualities of their IST-graduated staff.

== Some thoughts ==

''Initial note: I suppose many would simply classify this entry as an enormous "troll", or "joke entry" as it has been named, and move on. I do not share that opinion. There IS valuable material here. IMO the article only needs to be extensively fixed. :)''

I did frown upon the mere existence of this article when I first came across it, but after reading the whole thing my opinion is that it has enough value ''not'' to be deleted. It ''has'' interesting information, and it makes more sense to make it part of an English version (rather than a Portuguese one) as it has little interest for those who already know what it is :)

That said, I agree that it should undergo some modifications. The overall tone of the article ''does'' in fact seem rather biased (and mind you, I ''am'' Portuguese in case you were wondering) and I believe it could be rewritten in a more concise way (shortened, if you will). It would be great if someone with an English (read British/American/etc) cultural background read the article and '''posted an opinion here''' (or, better yet, tweaked the article herself) so that we know what needs to be done (I'm sure most will agree 70% of the discussion going on here is just bitching around and won't lead anywhere ;)). If the person in question were a little bit into Portuguese culture it would be even better, but I guess I'm asking too much now :)

I don't want to join the ongoing flame war on Praxes, but I do think there's enough material to create a new page on that subject. Just have some common sense: the whole point of an Encyclopedia entry is to enable the reader to understand something ''easily''. Such an extensive lecture on Praxes (as we have now) is pure overkill.

A final note on the uniqueness of Desenrascanço: I think the English word ''hack'' (check [http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html]) carries the ''essence'' of what Desenrascanço is in a perfect way. I'm not saying it is exactly the same thing, but I would advise other Portuguese wikipedians to calm down a bit before they claim we have "invented" this. :)

Feel free to reply, that's what this whole Talk thing is for. --[[User:Doshell|Doshell]] 18:18, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)

==The picture==
Is very funny, but its not giving the proper encyclopaediac tone we should aim for in Wikipedia. I am going to remove it and post it for deletion. Yesterday I fix a small table lamp with an empty water botle and a couple of paper clips. I think this kind of example is more inocuous. [[User:Muriel Gottrop|Muriel G]] 10:37, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)



== No consensus about this being culture ==

The four languages i know all have one or more words that mean roughly the same as «desenrascanço», some of them found in dictionaries, others not (I am quite sure this applies to most languages in the world). They are used to describe the same kind of action as in Portugal the word «desenrascanço» would describe. People are proud about their improvisation skills everywhere. And everywhere you can find people who make it their way of life.

The only courious thing in here is the fact of the existance of a Wikipedia article about this word in a foreign language, including a review of historical facts and (mostly) myths. 

The existance of this article in english language suggests a special meaning of this word inside the portuguese culture, that should be made available to foreign readers, which would be accaptable e.g. for «Descobrimentos».

The author states: "Most Portuguese people strongly believe it to be one of the their most valued virtues and a living part of their culture." 

Well, this would be the one and only justification for the existance of this article in english language.

However, the author doesn't supply any proof for that. He can´t. It is not an objective statement. I could say: "Most Portuguese people don't like it but have to use it due to the lack of appropriate equipments at work". I can also say: "Most Portuguese people think it is stupid to write an english article about this word". 

The word "most" is biased. It should read: "Some Portuguese people ..." or "Many Portuguese people ...". But "some" or "many" would not be enough to include «desenrascanço» into the portuguese culture, thus not enough to justify this whole article.

My conclusion: The article reflects a certain cultural understanding of some or many (the author believes most) portuguese people about a certain issue, but is based upon a general consensus among portugues people about this being a parte of portuguese culture. That consensus does not exist. So the article is biased.

Why does it originate 51 kbyte of discussion? Because some (many?) people in Portugal make a culture out of «desenrascanço», but they should not talk in the name of the whole nation. Some (many?) other people feel unconfortable about this being made a part of their culture.


== What's the point? ==

Looks like most of the fairy tails in the article have been trashed, so the rest doesn't seem to get that much discussion any more - I can understand that, the article is quite harmless now - and completely pointless for any foreign reader.

That's normal, after trashing all the biased stuff there's nothing left - a dictionary definition of a related word? For what? And now it states the infamous word after all is just a portuguese word for a concept that exists just everywhere.

You should have deleted the article. It was written in English mainly for portuguese readers, it's primary goal was provocation of portuguese readers. Attempts have been made to transform it into a "real" enciclopedic article, resulting in a complete loss of content. It's not worth the disc space it occupies.

*Fortunately, dear anon user, wikipedia is not paper and thats why its so nice. See [[Wikipedia:Unusual articles]] for other other things apparently pointless, however unique in the internet. [[User:Muriel Gottrop|Muriel G]] 12:22, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

**Thank you for the link, that was quite interesting. But don't you see the problem? The "Boston Molasses Disaster" is curious, but real, it really happened (i hope so - never heard about it before). This article is nonsense. The issue is meaningless for most portuguese people. And as long as it wants to make you believe that "most" portuguese people consider it part of culture, it is just <u>wrong</u> information. Yes, <u>wrong</u> information in a place where people expect to find <u>true</u> information (like about the Boston Molasses Disaster - i hope). Because the issue is just an ongoing joke in Portugal taken too much serious by some people, it always has been. Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense would be more appropriate.

== GREAT!! YEAH!! ==

What's your problem? Are you people crazy? This is one of the best and most important pages about Portugal i have ever seen! I hope the author will continue his great work. There is a urgent need for similar articles about Portugal. I think the most urgent of them would be about the "Nature of Alentejo People: lazy, fat, slow and dumb". I hope the author can provide it soon.

== Another two bits ==

This article would be ok for a blog (especially its original version), but it's definitely not encyclopedia material. People come to Wikipedia for factual information, not really for humorous or opinionated stuff, especially when it is not clearly marked as such. The article makes use of some popular myths and folklore trying to support that "desenrascanço" is some kind of characteristic Portuguese trait, which is doubtful, even though some may think it is so.

The statement "most Portuguese people strongly believe it to be one of the their most valued virtues and a living part of their culture" is highly questionable. To say that in Portugal "desenrascanço has a role in the academic culture in most educational institutions" is misleading to the non-Portuguese. It may be that for some in Portugal, "academic culture" refers to the rituals and traditions of a subgroup of university students. But that is not the meaning it has everywhere else in the world. 

The part about the company Siemens having offices in Portugal because of "desenrascanço" would be enough to tip one off that this text should not be taken too seriously. Even if if something of the sort was stated by a Siemens official, obviously such a statement has to be taken tongue in cheek.

The word (or "attitude", if you will) of "desenrascanço" is used by the Portuguese in general, it's not particular of the university or military subcultures. The lengthy part about the praxe really belongs into an article about the praxe itself.

As has been stated in this page, the word or attitude of "desenrascanço" has its equivalents in other cultures besides the Portuguese ("muddling through", "durchwurschteln", etc) and it's most certainly a "skill" that exists, and is valued and taken pride of, everywhere around the world. It is not particular of Portuguese people, and many would disagree that it is some kind of "cultural feature". There is nothing mystical about it, it's merely the ability to improvise under sub-optimal circumstances (such as lack of time, lack of resources, lack of skills).

Truth is, it's merely an autostereotype, a stereotype that some Portuguese apply to themselves. Do we want Wikipedia to list such stereotypes, in a way that could lead one to think that they actually are a characteristic of a particular group? For example, there's the stereotype that Irish people in general are drunkards. Does that warrant a particular article describing that stereotype as an actual fact, perhaps even attempting to justify it by including popular myths and pseudo-historical folklore? (It need not be a negative stereotype. For a positive stereotype the same applies.)

A number of questions can be asked on the appropriateness of this article for Wikipedia.

* Is it the purpose of this article to explain the meaning of a Portuguese slang word? That does not belong in Wikipedia.

* Does it mean to explain "desenrascanço" as it relates to the "praxe" in Portuguese universities? Put it in an article about the "praxe".

* If the purpose of the article is to describe the attitude of "desenrascanço", why is it about the Portuguese word, as if it were a Portuguese concept? And, does the general concept of "muddling through" deserve an article of its own? If so, why not an article about the attitude of "throwing the towel"? Or the attitude of "biding one's time"? Does it make sense?

** I'm Portuguese, and I have to agree with you. If this entry stays, then we surely need one about the Welsh and sheep... :D [[User:Dehumanizer|Dehumanizer]] 07:24, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)⏎
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== rafa hell ==

mas que cena!!
alguém me desenrasca aí uns trocos?

* vai trabalhar, malandro! ;) -[[User:PedroPVZ|Pedro]] 00:59, 9 Aug 2004