Revision 71522813 of "Talk:Video games that have been considered the greatest ever" on enwiki

{{talkheader}}
{{cvgproj|class=B}}

{{oldafdfull
| date = August 3, 2006
| result = '''keep'''
| votepage = Computer and video games that have been considered the greatest ever
}}

==Start==
couldn't resist, I went ahead and started this article since I think it's a great idea.  I've tried to avoid bias, including games that I have never played or personally think are overrated, but I'm sure there's no way that a single person could do this alone and be NPOV.  There's probably a bias towards console RPGs right now, since I rarely play other games.  [[User:Y0u|You]] 17:31, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Some of the places I got these from, I'm sure someone else can verify these, and I plan on adding more and also more games to the list as I find more sources-

*A magazine review quoted on the back of the case for FF7 cites a magazine (EGM I think?  I'll have to check) as saying that FF7 is "Quite possibly the greatest video game ever made" or something to that effect (don't remember exact words.
*In issue 100 of Nintendo Power (Septemeber 1997 I belive,) a list of the 100 greatest games of all time (obviously, on Nintendo systems only) was published and Super Mario 64 came in first.
*According to the Wikipedia article on Super Metroid, EGM stated something to the effect that it was "the greatest video game ever made."

:I would highly discourage using any individual magazine or website's reviews; I don't consider any of them to be "credible" enough for consideration. For that reason I might defer to Game Ranking's lists, which compile scores from dozens of magazines and websites. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 23:40, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

== missing from the list ==

Eh, what's about Pac-man, Galaga, SiniStar, and other arcade classics? Do they not count as video games? Ms. Pac-man's sold more than Super Mario Bros.
:Do you have a reference? [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 04:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I notice several are missing that should *probably* be here...
#the original ''[[Legend of Zelda]]'' made a heap of sales for its time
#''[[The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time]]'' also apparently made record sales
#''[[Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas]]'' sold big time too (not sure if it was exactly a record-breaker)
#''[[Halo 2]]''. Not sure about its sales but I think it came in second or third to San Andreas...?
#didn't ''[[Perfect Dark]]'' sell as many (or more?) units than its engine-sharer ''[[GoldenEye 007]]''?
#''[[Doom]]'' and ''[[Duke Nukem 3D]]'' probably sold a million fraggilion copies too...
#oh and ''[[Pokemon]]'' Red and Blue (and probably other colours too) probably sold in ludicrous quantities...
So, um, yeah... most of those sales statistics you can find already referenced on the original page. [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 00:53, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

:LoZ:OoT sold 6 mil total, I think. San Andreas and Halo 2 were the top two sellers in 2004, despite being released late in the year. They sold 5 and 4 million in 2004, respectively, and those are the most recent numbers I could find; both will likely sell another million or two over the next year. Perfect Dark sold maybe half what GoldenEye did, despite having better overall reviews. Doom and Duke Nukem probably also sold millions of copies as well, but so have dozens of other games.

:The [http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?nextpage=trend_content.html&show=ALL NPD website] lists the top games for each year/month, but won't give numbers. Looking at the lists, though, Madden is a regular chart-topper, and was #1 in 2003. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 02:33, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

::6 million? That's not very many considering its widespread acclaim... so what minimum figure do you think is acceptable? Right now it seems to be ~5-6 million. Otherwise this list could get crammed with all sorts of games that sold well but didn't last *cough'' [[Doom 3]] ''cough* [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 03:35, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

:::I think 10 million sounds good, but it reduces the list to the Mario series + Tetris (+ mention of SMB1 and Tetris being packaged with the NES and GB, respectively) + The Sims (top PC game). 'Course, the [[Movies that have been considered the greatest ever|movie]] equivalent page just lists the top ten plus past record holders. On top of that, I think NPD only records US sales. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 03:48, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
::::Problem is, though, this is supposed to be a "best ever" list, not a "best sellers" one. Many games sold well due to hype, but when gamers actually *played* them their opinions diminished. So ideally it's not just on sales alone. Hm... [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 04:53, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
:::::Which is why the best movie page uses other criteria along with sales. I mentioned Game Rankings earlier, and threw in the two user polls that I knew of in the article. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 05:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
::::::Ah, so I see. Well maybe require that the game wins a Game of the Year or two. I mean, any crappy game can sell millions based on marketing hype and a shiny graphics engine, but reviewers get to *play* it first; they know a good game when they see one and aren't afraid to tell you so. Personally I'd rank print magazines' opinions slightly higher, but the advantage of websites is that the reader can instantly click-through to see *why* they gave it GOTY. [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 05:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

*** The main problem with this wiki is that there are literally hundreds of gaming magazines all around the world, as well as hundreds of similar websites, and virtually all of them have done such polls at one point or another. Any attempt to list them would be inconclusive. The wiki as it currently stands only lists less than a dozen individual sources, chosen seemingly at random, and is therefore worthless. That's before taking into account the merits of individual sources - for example, the "notoriously tough" Famitsu magazine is also notorious for having its scores bought...

== what about ports in those totals? ==
Like for GTA Vice City that game was ported to PC and sold some more there. And Tomb Raider II was simultaneously released on PC. So do you think it's a good idea to add up multi-console figures? On the other hand a multi-platform release means a wider audience thus making one game appear more popular than a single-console game... hmmm... unless you say "6 million on PC, 5 million on Xbox, 2 millon on PS2" or something like that... [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 03:35, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea.  Games get more coverage if they are on more consoles, and therefore games like Halo 2 which is only for Xbox, wouldn't sell as much. [[User:Codingmasters|007bond]] 21:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

== Sorry for all this... ==

It seems I didn't think this thoroughly through when I nominated this article for GCOTW. After some digging, I found that claims of a game being the best ever are a dime a dozen and ''meaningful'' comparisons are very hard to come by. But since the article is now here, we might as well make the best of it. I still think a good article on this topic can be written, it's just a lot of work. One pretty decent reference I found was [http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/july01/top50index/] (Yes, it's GamySpy again, but they claim to have made a poll of about 100 experts, whatever that means. I think "Best ever" lists don't get much better sourced than that) It's also quite old (July 2001), but a classic wins it ([[Doom]]), so that's probably okay. I'm not throwing it into the article right away, because that would mean too much GameSpy, so I'm going to look for a few other references first. --<span style="font-family:monospace">&nbsp;[[User:Grm_wnr|grm_wnr]] </span>[[User_talk:Grm_wnr|<span style="border:1px solid;color:black;font-size:9px;padding:2px 1px 0px 1px">Esc</span>]] 01:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
:I'm adding it now anyway, because the article sorely needs it. But more additions of this kind are certainly sorely needed as well. --<span style="font-family:monospace">&nbsp;[[User:Grm_wnr|grm_wnr]] </span>[[User_talk:Grm_wnr|<span style="border:1px solid;color:black;font-size:9px;padding:2px 1px 0px 1px">Esc</span>]] 02:04, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
::Well right now IGN, GameSpy and Gamespot are the key players. There are other websites but the big players often happen to own them!
::Another good thing would be to add the "best of show" from E3. Because that's probably as uninfluenced as you're gonna get... [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 03:47, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
:::Well yeah, actually IGN owns GameSpy... Gamespot has a "greatest games of all times" series, but it's more of a weekly column than a ranking. --<span style="font-family:monospace">&nbsp;[[User:Grm_wnr|grm_wnr]] </span>[[User_talk:Grm_wnr|<span style="border:1px solid;color:black;font-size:9px;padding:2px 1px 0px 1px">Esc</span>]] 08:27, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

*** The main problem with this wiki is that there are literally hundreds of gaming magazines all around the world, as well as hundreds of similar websites, and virtually all of them have done such polls at one point or another. Any attempt to list them would be inconclusive. The wiki as it currently stands only lists less than a dozen individual sources, chosen seemingly at random, and is therefore worthless. That's before taking into account the merits of individual sources - for example, the "notoriously tough" Famitsu magazine is also notorious for having its scores bought...

== list arrangement: by year or by name? ==

Right now the list is just random, but it needs to be organised. Personally I'd go for a yearly approach as that lets you see the struggle of power between different licenses, but alphabetically would work too.

Plus it avoids people rearranging the list to put their favourite game higher than another...

I'm talking as much about future lists as I am about the current list

Of course ideally there would be yearly subheadings rather than putting (2002) beside each one, so you can clearly see where each year ends. [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 03:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
:I'm not a gamer, I came to this page because it got linked to another page I work on.  I'd suggest having games considered the best for each platform, especially for older platforms like Atari, C64 etc...[[User:SamuelWantman|Samuel Wantman]] 00:57, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::I think the original question suggests we will compile a final list of "THE BEST" games, when doing so would be POV. That's why the list of random games that started the article off was taken out and games were ordered by criteria; and in half the cases there's a way to order games by those criteria. In the other half (different user polls, critic polls, etc) I honestly believe it's possible to order by notability, if order is necessary at all. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 02:17, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== [[Computer and Video Games (magazine)|Computer and Video Games]] magazine poll... ==

I added the fact that ''[[GoldenEye 007]]'' was voted into first place by readers of the magazine in the January 2000 poll, but I remember they also did a similar poll some time in 2001, when a different game won. I don't have that issue, so does anyone know what came first that time? --[[User:Nick R|Nick R]] 22:06, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:It was The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. [[User:82.35.65.104|82.35.65.104]] 14:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

== The Hype Section ==

I'd just like to point out that I wasn't making any comments about Molyneux' games.  I absolutely loved Fable, and Black and White was quite fun as well (though it had some flaws); I've unfortunately never played Populous.  I just think that considering the ridiculous claims he makes (Fable was clearly quoted back in its Project Ego stage as being 'The Best RPG Ever'), he's easily a candidate for this page.  Similar with John Romero (The guy who's going to make you his bitch, remember?), though Daikatana in particular was a lot less of a success than anything Molyneux has ever put out.  I think the section is worth having in, but I won't revert it, I understand what you're saying, I just want to hear your thoughts on the matter. [[User:Kertrats|Kertrats]] 16:25, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Hype is probably outside the scope of this article. We have [[Technology hype]] which is currently lacking any examples from gaming. I think that would be the place to mention Daikatana. --[[User:Jmstylr|Jmstylr]] 17:33, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== An Idea For Another Section ==

I think another section that would be good for this article would be a list of games that have received some sort of "Greatest Hits"(I believe Nintendo calls it "Player's Choice") status by the maker of its console. While the criteria for a game to reach this status is ambigious(is it by # number units sold? is it an arbitrary decision from the console maker?), I still think the list would include many popular, noteworthy games that haven't been listed here. 

--[[User:Mitaphane|Mitaphane]] 19:28, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Player's Choice is by units sold (is it still over a million?  I'm not sure but I know it used to be...,) Sony's Greatest Hits line was originally over a million sold, then it was reduced to 500,000, and then it was made on a case-by-case basis.  (I read the Sony part at ign.com) [[User:Y0u|You]] 22:07, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

== pong ==

so what space invaders and pac man are not relevent anymore?  it looks like you people think that vid games started from the first play station.--[[User:GregLoutsenko|GregLoutsenko]] 18:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Super Mario Bros. far preceeds the Playstation! [[User:Sonic Mew|Sonic Mew]] | [[User_talk:Sonic Mew|talk to me]] 21:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

== Missing games ==

This list is very complete with regard to recent games, say from the last four-five years, but I notice a number of oldies missing... could someone please verify the popularity of such games as [[Street Fighter 2]] and [[Sonic the Hedgehog]]? Also, definitely deserving a mention is [[Pac-Man]], which was one of the earliest games ever and still exists in many incarnations. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">&gt;|&lt;</font>]] 21:10, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

:Also Missing: The single most popular strategy game ever. Starvraft - Warcraft was not even mentioned. MMORPG games are also not available. Blizzard is the one controlling firm on the PC Merket, second is EA. Starcraft is the most important Stragtegy game and hast the most features. I just cant believe its not on that site. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:194.105.100.178|194.105.100.178]] ([[User talk:194.105.100.178|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/194.105.100.178|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->

== POV, despite 'regularily featured in top-10 lists' ==

I don't think that this article can exist, because while we're saying that these have been considered the greatest by some list, ''we're also saying that the list was right in determining what constitutes the 'greatest game'''. At the very least, this page should be renamed to "list of the results of major computer and video game reviews".

This page seems to be giving a list of games that are, in fact, considered the greatest ever. Some of the games on this list are ridiculous, though some are reasonable. If these lists matched up with the games that I've heard hundreds of completely unaffiliated people praising, then ok, but they don't, so obviously something is amiss.

I disagree very much with the greatest game being the one that sold most, or the one that's considered great by many people. Take, for example, The Sims. Is it a great game? It's a good game, yes, but I think that its popularity arises from the fact that it's geared towards 'average' (that is, non-'nerdy') girls as well as boys. A large target audience does not mean that it's a great game. Another issue is that people tend to give high ratings to the games that they're currently interested in or are playing. 

As for personal opinion: if I created a list of the greatest games ever made, this would not be it. The expert polls seem to be well done, to their credit - the three 'included' super mario games are great, and are the ideal examples of what a platformer is about. About three games in the final fantasy series (most notably FF7, which I have not played) and Chrono Trigger always come up as the best classic rpgs. Doom as the shooter, due especially to its significance, but Half-Life (also counter-strike), Quake, and to a much lesser extent Halo would all be there as well. Sid's Civilization. Orcaria of Time, maybe. Starcraft. The old Metroid. Nethack. The two Diablo games, and the Everquest and Ultima Online games. Tetris and Pac-Man. Street fighter. Zork, which I didn't like. I havn't played half of these games, but I've heard lord knows how many people give outstanding reasons for them being great. And I'm probably missing quite a few other games - Katamari Damacy I've heard very good things about, though it's probably too new. [[User:Slike2|Slike2]] 01:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

:[[Films that have been considered the greatest ever]] predates this article (and was more or less the reason for creating this article). It too exists, despite having gone through processes like VfD. It, too, uses more or less the same criteria: Sales, reviews, and polls. Every game on both lists has a reason for being: NFL2K1 is on the list because it got incredibly good reviews (better than those for Halo and Halo 2, even). Any game that is NOT on the list has been exceeded in all criteria by several other games. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 04:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

:"''we're also saying that the list was right in determining what constitutes the 'greatest game'''" -- No, we're saying that ''they'' think they have a list of greatest games. The opinion is described, not used; no stance is taken as to whether they are right. The criterion for including their opinion is that they are a notable publication. Sales can surely be taken to define "greatness" in some way. There isn't one way to decide what the greatest game is, and that's why we're providing multiple choices. [[User:Fredrik|Fredrik]] | [[User talk:Fredrik|talk]] 06:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

==Page move==
Should we move this page? The title is quite confusing. &mdash; [[User:Stevey7788|Stevey7788]] ([[User talk:Stevey7788|talk]]) 00:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

:It's [[NPOV]]. If you can think of a better one, feel free to suggest it. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 01:00, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

== Genre Listing ==

There should be a list of genres with games that are considered to be the greatest falling under those genres. Final Fantasy 7 and Chrono Trigger could possibly make it under the RPG section, while Everquest or maybe even World of Warcraft could make it under the MMORPF section.

:How would you determine such a list? Sure, you can cite [http://www.mmogchart.com/] for MMORPG's, but the same can't quite be done with other genres. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 23:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Computer role playing games seem to be completely missing. Note the following from [[Baldur's Gate series]] article on Wikipedia: "In 1999, Baldur's Gate won the Origins Award for Best Roleplaying Computer Game of 1998, and in 2000, Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast won Best Roleplaying Computer Game of 1999.". There are others, but someone would have to research for verifiable recognition such as awards. -[[User:WCFrancis|WCFrancis]] 19:41, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

:Everyone and their ''dog'' gives out yearly awards, and if we included every game of the year from every year from every notable source, we'd have an immense list. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 20:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, there is always gamerankings.com to help out. On the Films Considered the Greatest list, they determine their results per genre by critics' polls, popular polls, and sales. Maybe if we were to find the best-selling games per genre and some of the top rated games per genre (via gamerankings.com or another credible source). If only there were a top 250 imdb user-vote kind of a thing for video games. Actually, with a little searching, I've found a top 100 list for the IGN critics and a top 99 list for the IGN readers; unless these are already included in this article? 
http://microsites.ign.com/kfc/top99games/  for the reader opinions, and http://top100.ign.com/2005/  for critics opinions.

== Pokemon ==
[[Pokemon Gold]] has been one of the most popular Gameboy games and is an ''excellent'' role-playing game (RPG). Should we add it? &mdash; [[User:Stevey7788|Stevey7788]] ([[User talk:Stevey7788|talk]]) 22:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

:If you have some valid, verifiable, and notable reason to include it, please do so. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 02:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

:As far as reviews go, ALL the core Pokemon games have done quite well. As for sales I seem to recall Red/Blue/Green sold (far?) more than Gold/Silver/Crystal(?) but how you would find collated figures to show that status is another matter. Right now this page is drawn exclusively from western opinions of games; it would be interesting to see Japanese/Korean/etc. opinions, but I don't know if there's a Japanese equivalent of GameRankings (or similar) to draw from. [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 01:19, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
::Well, I AM kinda curious why we don't list the four/five games to get perfect scores from [[Famitsu]] myself... Them being REALLY strict yewt widely-respected by just about ALL the gaming magazines/websites across the globe, it'd probably make a good addition to the list. --[[User:Shadow Hog|Shadow Hog]] 02:24, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Done. [[User:Kertrats|Kertrats]] 03:00, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Oh, of course *slaps forehead* yes that's definitely the Japanese source to go with. And looks like they're even stricter than I remembered. :) [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Garrett]]<sup>[[User talk:Master Thief Garrett|Talk]]</sup> 11:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Pokemon should be put on the list. No Pokemon game has ever received Gamespot Editor's Choice, and that's my reason.

== Best games by company/series ==

How's that sound? Here's an example... (note: Games taken from GameRankings with five votes minimum)

===Nintendo===

# ''[[The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time]]''
# ''[[Super Mario World]]''
# ''[[Metroid Prime]]
# ''[[The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past]]''
# ''[[Super Mario 64]]''
# ''[[Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy Kong's Quest]]''
# ''[[Super Metroid]]''
# ''[[The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages]]''
# ''[[GoldenEye 007]]''
# ''[[The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker]]''

===Mario===

(not counting ports)

# ''[[Super Mario World]]''
# ''[[Super Mario 64]]''
# ''[[Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy Kong's Quest]]''
# ''[[Super Mario Kart]]''
# ''[[Donkey Kong Country]]''
# ''[[Mario Kart Super Circuit]]''
# ''[[Wario Land 3]]''
# ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]''
# ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]''
# ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga]]''
# ''[[Mario Golf]]''
# ''[[Mario Tennis]]'' (GBC)
# ''[[WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$]]''
# ''[[Diddy Kong Racing]]''
# ''[[Paper Mario]]''
# ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]''
# ''[[Wario Land II]]''
# ''[[Mario Kart: Double Dash!!]]''
# ''[[Mario Tennis]]'' (N64)
# ''[[WarioWare: Twisted!]]''

What do you think? - [[User:A Link to the Past|A Link to the Past]] [[User talk:A Link to the Past|(talk)]] 02:27, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

:I don't like it. Basically, it's Square/Nintendo biased, since those are the major companies with major franchises and enough games to fill out a small list and still have some left over. Also, the first three Super Mario Bros. games are missing from your list, which is a disgrace. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 03:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
::This entire article is from GameRankings, meaning SMB3 wouldn't even BE on this article, because they don't do NES games. - [[User:A Link to the Past|A Link to the Past]] [[User talk:A Link to the Past|(talk)]] 03:21, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

==Edge and Next Gen lists==

I've been trying to compile a collection of "top 10" lists. You can see I added the link to the bottom of this page. I was wondering, could whoever added the information about Edge and Next Gen kindly tell me what the rest of their respective top ten lists were, so I can add em?

Thanks, [[user:J.J.]]
: The British Edge magazine didn't do a top 100 poll in 2004. (However, I think there's also an Australian edition edition of the magazine published, with different content, which may well have done.) The last time the UK Edge did one was in 2003, when for their 10th anniversary issue they listed their top 10 games in 10 genres, but in no order. There was a list a few of years before that as well, but I don't have that issue.

:However, the Edge staff are apparently working on some sort of special issue on the subject, which should be good: [http://forum.edge-online.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=8867#8867]

:Regarding the user polls by Computer and Video Games magazine: there were ''two'' of them; one in the January 2000 issue; one sometime in 2001 (which you have partially listed on your website. I don't have that issue, but I read it, and what you've got sounds about right). GoldenEye ''definitely'' came first in the Jan 2000 one. As for the rest of the top 10, I don't have the issue to hand right now so I can't confirm this (I'll email you when I can), but I think they were:

# [[GoldenEye 007]]
# [[Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time]]
# [[Final Fantasy VII]]
# [[Metal Gear Solid]]
:Others that I think made it somewhere into the top 10:
*[[Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit)]]
*[[Tetris]]
*[[Grand Theft Auto (game)|Grand Theft Auto]]

:One interesting thing to note about the inclusion of Sonic the Hedgehog was that votes for some game series - such as Bomberman and Street Fighter - seemed lumped together as one, judging by the platforms listed. That seemed to happen with Sonic. But IIRC, in the 2001 poll, [[Sonic the Hedgehog 2]] and [[Sonic and Knuckles]] made it into the top 100 separately.
:--[[User:Nick R|Nick R]] 15:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


==Video Games versus Computer Games==

Personally, I think it would make a lot of sense to distinguish between video games (which are played on platforms) and computer games (played on a personal computer). The two both have a very different feel to them, and as such, I really think it's like comparing apples and oranges. While there are a few cross-over games that are played on both a platform system or PC, I believe most people would agree with me that games that make it onto PC first and are later released onto platform generally are not as good on platform, and similarly, the opposite is true about games that were orignally for platform and are released for PC.

For example, it is unlikely that any of the very best strategy genre games would show up on a listing of the best video games, because strategy games do not play as well as they do on PC, largely due to availability of the mouse as a peripheral. Similarly, "beat-em-ups" won't do as well on a PC list, since games like Mortal Combat or Soul Caliber are best played on a platform.

My problem with lumping the two together is that, unfortunately, and to the detriment of many fine computer games, video games are simply better known and more widely played. I was appalled to find that not a single Blizzard game was mentioned on this page. StarCraft is simply the best game of all time, period. If you disagree, that's fine, but you are wrong. Naturally, this is my personal bias, but I certainly think its true that a number of computer games have been overlooked because they have to compete with video games, which don't even really compare. {{Unsigned|142.151.163.186|00:33, 28 October 2005 (UCT)}}

:Feel free to add them yourself, just remember to cite sources. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 05:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

::''The two both have a very different feel to them, and as such, I really think it's like comparing apples and oranges.''

::I completely disagree. Although there are large differences with some genres (such as RTS games or beat 'em ups, as you mentioned; and flight sims are also more common on the PC) I don't think there are many differences at all. Few people care which format they play a game on, as long as it's ''good''. It's all gaming.

::I don't think console games are causing people to overlook PC titles. If you click on the links to the various expert and user polls, you'll find that quite a few PC games do make it into the lists; they just rarely seem to reach the number one spot, which is what are mainly listed on this page (though Half-Life did win the GameSpy 2004 one, and Diablo II did beat Zelda OOT!). The "expert polls" section already includes one poll by PC Gamer, but if you do want to add more by dedicated PC magazines and sites, feel free to do so. But that would open the doors for other polls by single-format magazines: I know that the official UK Dreamcast magazine ran two polls (an "expert" one, which [[Virtua Tennis]] won, and a reader one, which [[Shenmue]] won). And then we'd get the polls by the various PlayStation and Nintendo mags, and we'd have to add a whole new "best game by format" section...

::Finally, I was appalled to find that not a single Sonic Team game was mentioned on this page. And GoldenEye is simply the best game of all time, period. If you disagree, that's fine, but you are wrong.

::See, I can do it too! :) --[[User:Nick R|Nick R]] 12:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
:::Technically, the Sonic Team/Goldeneye pair isn't related, where Blizzard/Starcraft is, so you didn't quite do it correctly.  However, the article as it is, I think, is just fine; we aren't being biased towards consoles, we even have a PC-only magazine's answer on the page.  I'd say it stays as is. [[User:Kertrats|Kertrats]] | [[User talk:Kertrats|Talk]] 14:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

:::There seems to be a real console game bent to the "greatest ever" list.  MobyGames which is decidedly more computer game friendly [http://www.mobygames.com/stats/top_games/k,all_time_best/ ''All time best''] list is domainated by PC games.  It all depends on who you ask I guess.  --[[User:Flipkin|Flipkin]] 03:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

==Important: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs that have been considered among the worst ever|Vote for Deletion]] underway==
A similar article to this one, [[List of songs that have been considered among the worst ever]], is currently in the middle of a VfD at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs that have been considered among the worst ever]]. If it is deleted, this article may be deleted shortly as well, since I don't see any significant difference in topic between the two articles; they're just opposite sides of the same coin, and dealing with slightly different topics, but the essential type of article is completely identical. As such, some editors and other frequenters of this page may be interested in participating in the ongoing discussion there, and in casting your votes if you have an opinion on the matter. The vote will also likely affect [[List of films that have been considered the worst ever]] and [[Films that have been considered the greatest ever]]. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
:I don't believe that the list of songs vote will ever affect this article. Judging music is very ambiguous and subjective, films not so much but still subjective to some taste. Video games, on the other hand, are pretty straightforward; the criteria of immersive, innovative gameplay; plenty of secrets, collection, and other replay value; and so on are easy to judge. Okay, maybe deciding on the "absolute greatest" is subjective, but among the greatest is easy to figure out, as good video games have a substantial influence on later games. [[User:The Legend of Miyamoto|The Legend of Miyamoto]] 00:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

== Bolo ==

[http://bishop.mc.duke.edu/bolo/ Bolo] might be the most classic Mac game ever, and one of the first games to balance network play, arcade-style intensity, and long-term strategy.  Sadly, it's lost a fan base due to its age, but there still exists a loyal community of Bolo players out there.  I wish it were more recognized for what it is. - [[User:Meese|Meese]] 10:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
:Wikipedia is not a place where anything gains recognition; it is a repository of things that have already been recognized. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 21:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

== EGM Platniums ==

Should someone mention the games that recieved Platnium rewards from EGM, which is their perfect rating. [[User:Fableheroesguild|Fableheroesguild]] 01:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

==What's the point?==

This whole thing is just one big POV. In fact, it's nothing but pure POV. Discussing the individual games and the favorable reviews they receive is one thing, but providing article that amounts to a collage of games that have been considered "great" isn't the the purpose of Wikipedia. 

I'm starting the petition here whether to disband the article as well put forth the proposal to the main wiki admin. [[User:Shadowrun|Shadowrun]] 16:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

So, should it be, or shouldn't be disbanded? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Shadowrun|Shadowrun]] ([[User talk:Shadowrun|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Shadowrun|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->

I do not believe. As already stated, there are articles of similar fashion that have been created before this one. The article shows several points of view. If it was completely based in one source, it would be considered POV, but since it uses several, I do not believe it is biased as is. -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 16:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article should be removed. I mean, honestly, the games listed are ridiculous. They seem to have chosen the most mainstream, dumbed down idiot games you can image, thus console games are overrepresented. Popularity does not equal quality. It would be like rating pop music over classical, simply because it's more popular and reaches a wider audience. Games that far exceed the games listed, such as Ufo: Enemy Unknown, Fallout 2, Ultima 7, Planescape and Starcraft go unlisted, simply because they're made for PC. Then you have second rate games such as FF7 and Super Mario 64 up there, which are basically popular because they're simple, dumbed down games for kids and teens.

:Ironically, that last comment reeks of POV. If you can give me references to game sites that gave critical acclaim to those games, feel free to put them on the list. And those "second rate" games had a huge influence on the gaming industry, meaning those PC games wouldn't exist without them. And I put a sort-of explanation of why this article should not be removed in the "Important: Vote for Deletion underway" section. [[User:The Legend of Miyamoto|The Legend of Miyamoto]] 00:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree this article should be deleted. There is not quantifiable, empirical method to argue any of this, it is a [http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/index.cfm?a=wiki&tag=WP_ReligiousDebates "religious" debate ]. You 'could' have an article PURELY about best selling computer games of all time, but this article is NOT it. Save this article until games have a 'academy award', (which they should and probably will have sooner or later), a 'magazine poll' is not a source of encyclopaedic information. [[User:Vespine|Vespine]] 03:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

== Exact count of RPGs please == 
Could someone please give an exact count of the number of RPGs that made [http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2401&Itemid=2 this list]? I counted 46, but there were some games I couldn't find out what were. Oh, and PLEASE don't count Zelda as an RPG, I hate it when people do that...--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 00:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

== Ordering lists by major system ==

Such as Nintendo, Playstation, Xbox, and PC - including all systems in each (xbox and xbox 360, all the nintendo systems etc). <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:71.198.34.66|71.198.34.66]] ([[User talk:71.198.34.66|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.198.34.66|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->

== Japanese Media ==
What is the point of the 'excuse' section for the japanese media?  Of course they like rpgs more, and of course that's a bias... that's the whole point of including another country's point of view, right?  If they liked the exact same stuff as UK or USA what would be the point of adding it in?  I'm taking this out, but I'll leave it here in case someone disagrees [[User:Oreo man|Oreo man]] 20:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:''However, it must be noted that gaming culture Japan is leaned toward Fantasy RPGs & Fantasy Military/Tactical simulations and together they contributed as the largest segment in Japan's video game industry. Add to the fact that DQ and FF series are held in extremely high esteem in Japan, may be the poll is not bias, but rather a representation of cultural difference and gaming preference in Far East (take note, Microsoft). In fact, FPS like Doom, Half Life and Halo that recieve rave reviews in the West are struggling to get themselves in the top 50 games in most Far East countries' polls.''

:Hmm... I don't like the explanation about the biased sample for Japanese media. Japanese gamers are known for liking role playing games, so the results fit the notion. In example, Final Fantasy XII sold 1,764,266 copies in the first week of sales, while FFX sold 1.8 million [http://ps2.gamespy.com/playstation-2/final-fantasy-xii/698359p1.html]. Dragon Quest V sold 1m copies in the first week, [http://www.ffinsider.net/news/1080686213.php] while Dragon Quest VIII sold 2,167,000 [http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=4647] Any sample you are going to to pick from Japan will end with RPGs topping the charts, I would be surprised if that is not true. Besides, I never hear "US and UK are biased towards EA" to explain their sales in those countries, in example. -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 11:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

::I'm not particularly fond of it either. I mean, the GameFAQs poll is biased, the GameSpy poll is biased, the Nintendo Power poll is blatantly biased, and so forth. To suggest that only ''Famitsu'''s readers are not representative of the population as a whole is stupid. I'm taking the thing back out. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 18:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

==Grim Fandango==
You forgot Grim Fandango!--Anony. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:161.184.67.160|161.184.67.160]] ([[User talk:161.184.67.160|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/161.184.67.160|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small>

== Removing IMDb comment ==

Ahem, IMDb is NOT a reliable source for video game reviewing. They are mainly based on movies, so there is likely to be plenty of bias factors in video game reviewing. Removing. [[User:The Legend of Miyamoto|The Legend of Miyamoto]] 18:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the lists listed are mainly Nintendo, and do not include games that are from other consoles <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Richard n|Richard n]] ([[User talk:Richard n|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Richard n|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small>

== Game length ==

hasnt any of these web sites ever had a poll to see which games are the longest. i would say legend of zelda: ocarina of time, but that might be because ive had the game for years and havent been able to complete.  --[[User:82.47.25.159|82.47.25.159]] 12:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

== Is the Best Selling section necessary? ==

In my opinion, the "best-selling" section should be deleted due to its irrelevance to the article as a whole. I argue that popularity cannot be a factor on the "greatness" of something. However, seeing as the two are closely related, a link to [[list of best selling computer and video games]] should remain under the "see also" section or something. What do you think? --[[User:Taitington|Taitington]] 15:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

== Deus Ex ==

No one considered Deus Ex the greatest game ever? It's a great pity. - [[User:Jack's Revenge|Jack&#39;s Revenge]] 18:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
:If you find someone who has, let us know! Just keep in mind that we do want [[WP:RS|good sources]]. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 02:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

== EGM Platniums ==

Does anyone know all the games that Electronic Gaming Monthly has given thier highest award (all 10s) so we can add them to the list? [[User:Fableheroesguild|guitarhero777777]] 03:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

OOPS!!!! I made a mistake of repeating a post I made months ago that no one responded to. I'm sorry. [[User:Fableheroesguild|guitarhero777777]] 03:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

== Starcraft ==

Neither Starcraft nor any other Blizzard games are mentioned here. This is a serious flaw and should be corrected. Not my opinion either. And I don't have to cite my sources. Ask the guy sitting next to you what his favorite PC games are.
:Deus Ex!! - [[User:Jack's Revenge|Jack&#39;s Revenge]] 20:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

: This page is seriously biased towards consoles in that majority of the citations are from console publications. --03:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)