Difference between revisions 5055585 and 5061289 on enwikisource

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== [[Index:1930 QLD Royal Commission into Racing Report.djvu]] ==

This is a mess , with 2 different styles of sidenotes used.

Can someone set ONE style consistently across this, and leave a note on the talk page? [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|talk]]) 23:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

(contracted; show full)
::TYVM! ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]'' <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]</span>, <small>16:17 23  August 2014 (GMT)</small>
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== Unknown character ==

Does anyone know what the letter is in footnote 4 on the bottom of [[Page:Origin and Growth of Religion (Rhys).djvu/285|this page]]?  It looks like a reverse eth, but I can't find it in any alphabet I've searched for.—<font style="color: #000000; text-decoration: none; font-weight: bold">[[User:Zhaladshar|Zhaladshar]]</font> <sup><font style="color: #FF0000; font-size: small; text-decoration: none">[[User talk:Zhaladshar|(Talk)]]</font></sup> 13:50, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
:''ó''? --<font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;"> [[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] ([[User talk:Daniel Mietchen|talk]]) </font> 15:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
::No.  That character is really obvious in the text.  This is some kind of archaic Welsh/Celtic/English character that I can't figure out.—<font style="color: #000000; text-decoration: none; font-weight: bold">[[User:Zhaladshar|Zhaladshar]]</font> <sup><font style="color: #FF0000; font-size: small; text-decoration: none">[[User talk:Zhaladshar|(Talk)]]</font></sup> 01:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
:::Looks Welsh based on a quick [http://books.google.com/books?id=WVZKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA224 search]. Also see p. xvi of the same text; it shows an alphabet. [[User:Londonjackbooks|Londonjackbooks]] ([[User talk:Londonjackbooks|talk]]) 01:18, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


[[w:Welsh orthography]] strongly suggests that it should simply be ''ó'', the acute being used to indicate stress on a syllable other than the penultimate.

I suspect this is another example of the problem tabled at [[Wikisource:Scriptorium/Archives/2009-10/Concerns about fidelity of Internet Archive DjVu files]]. Briefly, the DjVu compression algorithm works by clustering glyphs into a set of glyph classes, and assigning a single glyph to be the representative of each class. When it works well, there is only one "roman-a" glyph stored, and it is used to represent every "roman-a" in the entire book. When it fails, glyphs that represent different symbols may end up in the same class, and represented by the same glyph, resulting in corruption of the text in the very images we are relying on to proof!

In this case, it looks like the same glyph is being used to represent both "italic-o-acute" and "italic six". This hypothesis could be proved or disproved by downloading the jp2.zip, and extracting and examining the uncompressed page scan. [[User talk:Hesperian|Hesperian]] 01:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

:::More novice searching: Doing a search of some of the text from the footnote ("ar y geuyn ehun") resulted in the [http://books.google.com/books?id=xPIWhdCJgk8C&pg=PA94&dq=%22ar+y+geuyn+ehun%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M67ZU_LgGMekigKStIDoCQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22ar%20y%20geuyn%20ehun%22&f=false same text] with a "w" substituting for the ''6'' ("arwest" for "ar''6''est", etc.), just like in the alphabet on p. xvi of the link mentioned in my first comment above under "w". [[User:Londonjackbooks|Londonjackbooks]] ([[User talk:Londonjackbooks|talk]]) 02:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
:::The character as rendered [http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/ms-page.php?ms=Pen18&page=42r&l=c0l10 here] as well for "ar6est" (see highlighted line) as referenced from [http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/wordlist.php?prefix=Arwest&ms=Pen18 here] as "arwest"... [[User:Londonjackbooks|Londonjackbooks]] ([[User talk:Londonjackbooks|talk]]) 03:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

:::: Here is the original page as suggested by Hesperian and you don't have to download the whole file: [https://archive.org/stream/lecturesonorigi00rhys#page/269/mode/1up] just maximize the image and you can see the text clearly.--[[User:Ineuw|Ineuw]] ([[User talk:Ineuw|talk]]) 03:35, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
:::::I believe that link displays an image post-compression. [[User talk:Hesperian|Hesperian]] 03:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
::::::I have viewed the raw jp2, and the character looks like a ''6'' there too. So much for my theory.... [[User talk:Hesperian|Hesperian]] 04:12, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
:Thanks for all the help, guys!  I learned a new letter today.  ỽ seems like it's similar to ''w'', but I'm not sure under what circumstances you use one and not the other.  Too bad the letter doesn't seem to show up right now in the browser.—<font style="color: #000000; text-decoration: none; font-weight: bold">[[User:Zhaladshar|Zhaladshar]]</font> <sup><font style="color: #FF0000; font-size: small; text-decoration: none">[[User talk:Zhaladshar|(Talk)]]</font></sup> 13:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
::For those (like me) who can't see it, here it is: [http://www.charbase.com/1efc-unicode-latin-capital-letter-middle-welsh-v]. [[User talk:Hesperian|Hesperian]] 13:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

:::I've checked with a Welsh friend who pointed me to [[w:Ỽ]], which I think is the capital. [[User:Beeswaxcandle|Beeswaxcandle]] ([[User talk:Beeswaxcandle|talk]]) 20:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
::::Well if {{unicode|&#7932;}} (&amp;#7932;}} is the capital letter, then according to the unicode tables {{unicode|&#7933;}} (&amp;#7933;}} ought to be the lower case equivalent. Both very similar and both visible here. [[User:AuFCL|AuFCL]] ([[User talk:AuFCL|talk]]) 08:32, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
::::: Am I the only person seeing little squares instead of whatever this mystery character is? [[User:Mukkakukaku|Mukkakukaku]] ([[User talk:Mukkakukaku|talk]]) 23:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
::::::@Mukkakukaku: Don't be too surprised. You know this thing called "unicode"? Take it as an advertising term (i.e. a lie—it is anything ''but'' "universal".) Oh, and universal fonts? (Well you get the idea: none of this junk is generally portable betwixt browsers, operating systems, installed fonts, web-font support et al&hellip;) Here endeth the cynic's lesson.<p>By the way a genuine thank-you for the feedback. Which browser+version+operating system are you using because {{tl|unicode}} was supposed to provide ''some'' degree of Internet Explorer support (and clearly doesn't quite cut it in this instance.) [[User:AuFCL|AuFCL]] ([[User talk:AuFCL|talk]]) 00:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)</p>
::::::: Chrome 36.0.1985.125 m, Windows 7. Also tried on Firefox 30.0 and IE 11.0.9600.17207. -- [[User:Mukkakukaku|Mukkakukaku]] ([[User talk:Mukkakukaku|talk]]) 00:46, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
::::::: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters This wikipedia page] seems to indicate that I need to install a special Windows update for Win7 to enable unicode support. That's probably the step I'm missing. [[User:Mukkakukaku|Mukkakukaku]] ([[User talk:Mukkakukaku|talk]]) 01:05, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
::::::::It is extremely likely you already have unicode support. This website tells your browser "display my body text in Helvetica Neue font if you have it installed, otherwise Helvetica if you have it installed, otherwise Arial if you have it installed, otherwise whatever your default sans-serif font is." Your browser follows those instructions and selects a font, and you can only hope that the selected font contains a glyph for every unicode character on the webpage. If your font doesn't contain a glyph for a unicode character, it displays that 'little squares' glyph instead. So depending on what fonts are installed, some of us will see the character, some the square. Me, I'm seeing the squares like you are. [[User talk:Hesperian|Hesperian]] 01:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: I just took a peek at the font-family declaration in that template, and the intersection between the font-family and the ones installed on my computer are Microsoft Sans Serif and Lucida Sans Unicode. Probably the glyph in question is present in one of the other fonts that have higher precendence than those two (which don't contain the glyph.) --[[User:Mukkakukaku|Mukkakukaku]] ([[User talk:Mukkakukaku|talk]]) 01:42, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

===New unknown character===
I have a new unknown character appearing [[Page:Origin and Growth of Religion (Rhys).djvu/404|here]] in the footnote.  It looks like a 7, but its placement isn't right.  It seems to show up in old Welsh poetry examples.  Does anyone have any idea what it is?  Someone figured out this strange writing system called an ogham that I had an issue with earlier in the text...maybe someone has an idea what this is.—<font style="color: #000000; text-decoration: none; font-weight: bold">[[User:Zhaladshar|Zhaladshar]]</font> <sup><font style="color: #FF0000; font-size: small; text-decoration: none">[[User talk:Zhaladshar|(Talk)]]</font></sup> 13:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
:I haven't seen that in Welsh texts before but, off the top of my head, it looks like the [[:w:Tironian notes#Current|Tironian ampersand]]. It's more common in Irish and Scottish but see if that fits the context. In any case, if you're just transcribing, you can certainly use its unicode symbol&mdash;{{xxx-larger|⁊}};&mdash;it looks close enough.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<font color="Gold">II</font></span>]] 10:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks a lot!  That's exactly what I'm looking for.—<font style="color: #000000; text-decoration: none; font-weight: bold">[[User:Zhaladshar|Zhaladshar]]</font> <sup><font style="color: #FF0000; font-size: small; text-decoration: none">[[User talk:Zhaladshar|(Talk)]]</font></sup> 13:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
::: Looks like a square to me. But then again I think it's been established that my vanilla Windows 7 install doesn't come with the fancy fonts that contain most of these unicode characters. Can you try using the {{tl|unicode}} template when you proofread it? [[User:Mukkakukaku|Mukkakukaku]] ([[User talk:Mukkakukaku|talk]]) 03:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
::::I do all my proofreading on a Chromebook.  Apparently it has a wider variety of glyphs in its fonts than Windows (I have the same problem on my Windows-based computer).  I wish that font selector worked because maybe we could force it to load the glyph from a font in one of those for the benefit of everybody.—<font style="color: #000000; text-decoration: none; font-weight: bold">[[User:Zhaladshar|Zhaladshar]]</font> <sup><font style="color: #FF0000; font-size: small; text-decoration: none">[[User talk:Zhaladshar|(Talk)]]</font></sup> 13:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
:::[[User:Zhaladshar|You're]] welcome!&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<font color="Gold">II</font></span>]] 13:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

== Errata ==

What is the SOP for a.) notified errata, b.) other typographical errors? ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]'' <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]</span>, <small>13:16 23  August 2014 (GMT)</small>

:We haven't yet fully compiled guidelines on how to deal with errata, and what are the best practices, but some work is underway. You'd need to be a bit more specific about what it is you are asking, because there are lots of different sorts of errata and errors. For a misspelled word, you can use {{tl|SIC}}, but bigger issues may not be solvable through the use of that template. --[[User:EncycloPetey|EncycloPetey]] ([[User talk:EncycloPetey|talk]]) 16:16, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
::I was thinking specifically of [[Page:Characteristicks of men, manners, opinions, times Vol 3.djvu/467|this]] errata page. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]'' <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]</span>, <small>16:29 23  August 2014 (GMT)</small>
:::I haven't seen a standard method proposed for dealing with that sort of situation, and so would be very interested myself to hear what people have done (or think could be done) to handle errata like those. --[[User:EncycloPetey|EncycloPetey]] ([[User talk:EncycloPetey|talk]]) 16:34, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
::::I remember that [[User:AuFCL]] did some work on [[A History of Mathematics]], which included [[Page:A History of Mathematics (1893).djvu/4|an errata page]]. Have a look? —[[User:Clockery|Clockery Fairfeld]] <small>([[User talk:Clockery|ƒ=ma]])</small> 16:45, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
:::::He used {{tl|SIC}}, but without ''knowing'' that there is an Errata page while reading, there is nothing to indicate that use of the template is based upon published errata versus suspected error on the part of the WS editor. --[[User:EncycloPetey|EncycloPetey]] ([[User talk:EncycloPetey|talk]]) 20:36, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
::::::If <nowiki>{{SIC}}</nowiki> might be misleading, one can always use {{tl|tooltip}}, adding a remark like <nowiki>{{tooltip|text_1|text_2, see errata}}</nowiki> or something like that.--[[User:Mpaa|Mpaa]] ([[User talk:Mpaa|talk]]) 20:48, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Neither of those templates "work" on mobile devices because they require a hover action. Just throwing that out there. [[User:Mukkakukaku|Mukkakukaku]] ([[User talk:Mukkakukaku|talk]]) 21:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
:::::::: Hm, I am inclined to correct where the errata are bound-in with the text, as this represents the intended form of the book at the time of publishing.  Of course bibliographic needs differ from the general reader's needs, but those readers will presumably resort to the image.  ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]'' <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]</span>, <small>02:52 24  August 2014 (GMT)</small>
::::::::: The guidance I was given a few years back was to indicate errata in the notes field of the header template for the relevant mainspace page. However, for [[DMM]] as the Addenda and Corriegenda are in a 300-page Appendix, I've been adding a note in brackets at the relevant point in the article. See [[A Dictionary of Music and Musicians/Missa Papæ Marcelli]] for an example of this. [[User:Beeswaxcandle|Beeswaxcandle]] ([[User talk:Beeswaxcandle|talk]]) 03:21, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::: That's some useful alternatives.  Thanks for that. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]'' <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]</span>, <small>20:02 24  August 2014 (GMT)</small>

[[Nil Durpan/Appendix|This one]] is another example. Someone may have a look and offer guidance. [[User:Hrishikes|Hrishikes]] ([[User talk:Hrishikes|talk]]) 14:36, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

{{ping|Rich Farmbrough}} If we are talking published errata, then two other works that I did ages ago are
* [[List of Carthusians, 1800–1879/B]] see Birch, on the Errata page, I just left it
* [[Highways and Byways in Sussex/Errata]] and follow the links
Of course, there is also the errata that we have done for the DNB entries where we have transcluded the errata in later volumes to the original (corresponding) article. There will be no standard due to the nature of the errata, either published in the same work, later works, and the form and amount of the errata. We would look to keep the original page as is, then somehow hook-in the errata in the least defacing means. — [[user:billinghurst|billinghurst]] ''<span style="font-size:smaller">[[user talk:billinghurst|sDrewth]]</span>'' 05:11, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

== Footnotes ==

I would like to be able to use asterisk and obelisk for footnotes, I can't see how to do this in the help page for footnotes, nor work out my own method. Probably it would require some change in the underlying software, but maybe there is CSS solution.  Comments? ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]'' <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]</span>, <small>02:52 24  August 2014 (GMT)</small>
:Use {{tl|ref}} and {{tl|note}} per [[Help:Footnotes and endnotes#Alternatives]]. [[User:Beeswaxcandle|Beeswaxcandle]] ([[User talk:Beeswaxcandle|talk]]) 03:15, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks, it appears that the choice is between having this flexibility, and having  the dual footnotes/endnotes capability automatically.  Hm. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]'' <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]</span>, <small>20:01 24  August 2014 (GMT)</small>
:::{{ping|Rich Farmbrough}} We usually don't replicate *, †, ‡ reference labels and just have the default. 1) it is easier, 2) we are reproducing the work with endnotes, rather than footnotes, so hanging onto a typographic archaism seemed fruitless, and probably pointless. What it requires is a requested change to [[mw:Extension:Cite]] to have this done tidily, and even then not too nice in endnotes (and I think hell freezing over will come first). — [[user:billinghurst|billinghurst]] ''<span style="font-size:smaller">[[user talk:billinghurst|sDrewth]]</span>'' 04:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
::::Yes indeed, I was puzzling over the endnotes solution to multiple asterisks and obelisks.  It does seem a shame to loose those lovely typographical creatures altogether though. Thanks for your response, and also the one on Errats, which is just as helpful, and more satisfying.  ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]'' <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]</span>, <small>07:17 28  August 2014 (GMT)</small>